Kyle Collinsworth PG

On other threads we end up talking about KC as our point guard for better or worse, so thought we should have a thread about it.



KC has been our point guard for nearly 3 years. The big knock on him is he is not a true point guard and is playing out of position. I have my issues with KC and his play at times, but the guy is averaging over 7 assists per game, isn't that what a point guard is supposed to do? Plus he scores and you get the bonus of his rebounding. Defense: He doesn't look like much, but he has length and seems to cover his guy pretty well. Also has nearly 2 steals per game. Granted, he has a HORRIBLE jumpshot with no range at all and he has regressed with his FT shooting, but who would have been a better option these past 2-3 years? Other guys, ie Carlino, had their chance to step up and didn't. Transferred guys weren't even breaking into the rotation as it was. So what has been our better option these past years?

Stats wise KC is one of the best PG's BYU has ever had, that's pretty remarkable. Carlino was never a PG and would have been playing just as out of position, if not more so, because he was more a shooting guard in his own head than a PG. His assist numbers certainly never came anywhere close to KC's.

This is why I started the discussion, because its a bit of a dilemma in my mind. I have my issues with KC as much as anyone, but he is putting up all the numbers you would want from an awesome PG and then some but yet we label him not a point guard and playing out of position and some go as far as to say he does so to the detriment of the rest of the team. I'm not sure how to reconcile his stats and play with his appearance of not being a real PG. I know other teams struggle to game plan for KC which has to be an advantage for us.

I think kids coming in want to be the star by putting more points on the board rather than helping others be the leading scorer by dishing off to them. Most of them were the leading scorer on their high school team. From that standpoint I compliment KC. I still think he'd have done better as a forward where he could still distribute something like Scott Pippin for the Bulls. He'd have had fewer assists but more rebounds and points. I do wish the coaches would look harder for a true point guard. Maybe they just aren't to be found. Maybe Haws can fill the pg position. If he can It looks like all the other pieces are in place.



Now that the season is past half done it looks like KC was the best option for this season. It will be interesting to see where his post college career will go.

nuk13 wrote:
I think kids coming in want to be the star by putting more points on the board rather than helping others be the leading scorer by dishing off to them. Most of them were the leading scorer on their high school team. From that standpoint I compliment KC. I still think he'd have done better as a forward where he could still distribute something like Scott Pippin for the Bulls. He'd have had fewer assists but more rebounds and points. I do wish the coaches would look harder for a true point guard. Maybe they just aren't to be found. Maybe Haws can fill the pg position. If he can It looks like all the other pieces are in place.



Now that the season is past half done it looks like KC was the best option for this season. It will be interesting to see where his post college career will go.

I believe Elijah Bryant can be a true point guard. He certainly had the ball in his hands most of the time at Elon. The difference here will be he won't need to shoot and score as much as he needed to there. For those maybe concerned if he can move back to a playmaker role and less of a scorer, keep in mind that before Elon he played at an elite prep school on the east coast with at least three blue chip players who went on to major programs. On that team he was the PG with the role of getting them the ball more than scoring himself. Bryant won't get as many rebounds as KC, but he may get as many assists, and he's a much better shooter. He also drives well to the basket, although probably not as well as KC.



Also, at times this year when Emery has run the point when KC has been out I think he's mostly done a pretty good job with it. I don't think this will be a problem position for BYU at all over the next few years.

I think PG will be ok for the next few years with Emery, Bryant and chapman.

Sorry, but Carlino was BYU's all-time assists per game leader when he was at BYU for most of the time he played, even when he came off the bench (because KC was at point and Haws played SF, the only other logical place for Kyle to play).



Carlino was masterful with the ball. He had a court vision and a talent for pushing the tempo upcourt. Kyle lacks in those areas. He dribbles with his head down a lot of times.



I like Kyle fine, when he is used correctly. He is being used very well the last half of this season. Carlino would have been a better point guard, and Emery is currently a better option to push the ball upcourt and run the offense. But Kyle does fine on mismatches, and especially posting from 10-12 feet out - which they are doing now. Maybe because they read my posts... ;)



The assists he gets now he doesn't need to play point guard for. He gets many of his assists crashing in and dishing off of the drive. He could do just as well at the SF position, and we would have someone bringing the ball down that can hit free throws, has a jump shot to pull his defender close (creating better spacing in the middle of the floor), and is a better passer.



I like Kyle fine. As others have mentioned, we will be just fine at the position when he isn't here anymore.

Unfortunately for you no stats back that up.

Just by comparison, Carlino's most assists in a game was 11, a feat he hit 1 time in his career.



KC met or surpassed 11 assists 5 times so far. His high is 15.



Carlino averaged 4.8 assists in 2012, 4.3 in 2013 seasons. Very good numbers for sure.

Collinsworth averaged 4.6 in 2013, 6.0 in 2014, and 7.3 in 2015.



The numbers speak for themselves.

Kyle struggles on the fast break because he is back catching the rebound.

Brayden Green wrote:
Sorry, but Carlino was BYU's all-time assists per game leader when he was at BYU for most of the time he played, even when he came off the bench (because KC was at point and Haws played SF, the only other logical place for Kyle to play).

Matt Montague, 96-96, 99-02, 122 games, 570 assists, 4.67 apg

Danny Ainge, 77-81, 118 games, 539 assists, 4.56 apg

Matt Carlino, 11-14, 96 games 437 assists, 4.55 apg

SpiffCoug wrote:

Sorry, but Carlino was BYU's all-time assists per game leader when he was at BYU for most of the time he played, even when he came off the bench (because KC was at point and Haws played SF, the only other logical place for Kyle to play).

Matt Montague, 96-96, 99-02, 122 games, 570 assists, 4.67 apg

Danny Ainge, 77-81, 118 games, 539 assists, 4.56 apg

Matt Carlino, 11-14, 96 games 437 assists, 4.55 apg

While he was at BYU, he was ahead at some point. (Just go back and look through Wrubell's twitter feed). He eventually found himself on the bench and the assist per game diminished. I bet that his assists per minute stack up against the greats. He was definitely point guard material, but he never really got to play the position once KC arrived, and was delegated to the bench.

Brayden Green wrote:

Brayden Green wrote:
Sorry, but Carlino was BYU's all-time assists per game leader when he was at BYU for most of the time he played, even when he came off the bench (because KC was at point and Haws played SF, the only other logical place for Kyle to play).

Matt Montague, 96-96, 99-02, 122 games, 570 assists, 4.67 apg

Danny Ainge, 77-81, 118 games, 539 assists, 4.56 apg

Matt Carlino, 11-14, 96 games 437 assists, 4.55 apg

While he was at BYU, he was ahead at some point. (Just go back and look through Wrubell's twitter feed). He eventually found himself on the bench and the assist per game diminished. I bet that his assists per minute stack up against the greats. He was definitely point guard material, but he never really got to play the position once KC arrived, and was delegated to the bench.

Feel free to go back through yourself. Either way, his career mark was never the best in BYU history.



It's similar to saying Mark McGwire is going to break Hank Aaron's home run record because he hit 49 as a rookie so he's on pace to do that.

SpiffCoug wrote:

SpiffCoug wrote:

Sorry, but Carlino was BYU's all-time assists per game leader when he was at BYU for most of the time he played, even when he came off the bench (because KC was at point and Haws played SF, the only other logical place for Kyle to play).

Matt Montague, 96-96, 99-02, 122 games, 570 assists, 4.67 apg

Danny Ainge, 77-81, 118 games, 539 assists, 4.56 apg

Matt Carlino, 11-14, 96 games 437 assists, 4.55 apg

While he was at BYU, he was ahead at some point. (Just go back and look through Wrubell's twitter feed). He eventually found himself on the bench and the assist per game diminished. I bet that his assists per minute stack up against the greats. He was definitely point guard material, but he never really got to play the position once KC arrived, and was delegated to the bench.

Feel free to go back through yourself. Either way, his career mark was never the best in BYU history.



It's similar to saying Mark McGwire is going to break Hank Aaron's home run record because he hit 49 as a rookie so he's on pace to do that.

No, it's not. It is like saying "He hits the most home runs per at bat than anyone ever has. That's pretty cool!"

Ok, I can accept that correction. But question, once someone falls off that pace, should you continue to tout that previous pace?



"Remember when we thought Carlino was going to be so awesome because of that great pace he was on?"



"Yeah. It's too bad he couldn't maintain it and actually be that good."



"But he was on PACE to be that good - at one point in his career."



"True, but it doesn't matter since he fell off the pace and finished on a different pace."



"Yeah, but the PACE!"



"Good times, for part of the time."

I think what BG is saying is that Carlino didn't have much choice in the matter as he was moved to the 2 guard and didn't have the ball in his hands as much, he also was riding the pine more.



I think if Carlino/KC play equal minutes, Carlino would definitely be close to or at the top of assist leaders at BYU.

BroncoBot wrote:
I think what BG is saying is that Carlino didn't have much choice in the matter as he was moved to the 2 guard and didn't have the ball in his hands as much, he also was riding the pine more.



I think if Carlino/KC play equal minutes, Carlino would definitely be close to or at the top of assist leaders at BYU.

Then I would likely counter that Carlino was moved because he wasn't doing what Rose wanted his PG to be doing. And that KC hasn't been moved to SG or SF because he is doing what Rose wants his PG to be doing.

Well, I've never been one to shy away from posts on Carlino. In just 2.5 seasons with the Cougs, Carlino finds himself on a bunch of top 20 lists. If you just pause to think about that for a second, that in and of itself is quite an accomplishment. Here are a few:



#7 in assists made. This is just straight number of assists. In just 96 games, Carlino completed 437 assists, a 4.6 average. Not counting KC's effort this season, only one other Coug has a higher average than Carlino: Matt Montague with 570 assists in 122 games (4.7). That's ahead of Jimmer and just a few hundredths below Ainge. Had Carlino stayed another year, played PG, and continued at his previous clip, he would have passed Matt Montague as BYU's all-time assist leader. Not bad for a player that's more of a shooting guard. :bug:



#3 in assists/game. Only Matt Montague and Ainge finish ahead of Carlino. KC will likely finish ahead of Carlino this season, bumping Carlino to 4th. Still not bad company to be among.



#14 in assist to turnover ratio. Cusick ranks #1 (course he does) as well as many other notoriously cautious players. As of last season KC ranked behind Carlino on this list. Jimmer doesn't even make the list.



#6 steals all time. Again, pretty phenomenal given his short career at BYU. Had Carlino played another full season and continued at his normal clip, he would have easily surpassed the great Jackson Emery. :bug:



#2 steals/game. Carlino was a superb and very underrated defender.



Again, Carlino accomplished all this in about 2.5 seasons of play at BYU, the last one spending significant min at the 2. I really do not get the criticism towards Carlino as a PG. In a hundred years of BYU hoops, he was one of the best PGs BYU has EVER had.

I like our phantom conversation, Spiff. :)



Gunk is very much right on. The important thing to remember is that I think that moving Carlino away from point guard had less to do with his "deficiencies" as a point guard, and more to do with the fact that out of the group of KC, Carlino, and Haws, only Carlino is equipped to play shooting guard, because only he can stay with shooting guard on defense and KC's shooting ability has been well documented. He would never work out as a shooting guard. He also shouldn't start over Haws, Haws being the better player far and away, from a scoring and consistency standpoint offensively.



So... the other shoe drops, because are you really going to bench KC or Haws so that Carlino could start at PG? I personally thought that KC should play the 4 against smaller lineups next to MIka, play Carlino at point, Halford at shooting guard (I loved his man defense) but I would have accepted Winder or Bartley there, Haws at the 3, KC at the 4, and MIka at the 5. Against bigger lineups play Haws at 2, KC at 3, and then a PF (Austin or Sharp maybe) and Mika.



Then we have the best defensive team possible on the court, we score plenty, we have a great post presence. Etc. But, I digress. Carlino was a great player, and it's too bad that it didn't work out. But for someone to say that he wasn't a true point guard is just silly. He had Steve Nash court vision and ability. He was streaky, but that was forgiveable. And he was asked to shoot and score for the team.



The one thing that I liked also, is upon leaving everyone was giving him an opportunity to blame mormons and jump on the hate mormons bandwagon, but he was very gracious. "I loved everything about BYU, except for the basketball part."



The point of the thread is that we have had good point guards in the shadow of KC (Carlino, Calvert) and both ended up transferring, leaving us without depth at the position. That isn't really a good thing. We have good starter material in Emery, but very little depth behind that. Bryant adds to that depth, but isn't eligible for next year.

Carlino had awesome potential as a PG and had great moments as PG at BYU. He could have been great, but we forget he wasn't replaced at PG because KC was a better PG, but rather he was replaced because he wasn't running the offense and doing what the coaches wanted him to do. He was frustrating to watch because he could be so good, but then just do head scratching things. He was a better PG than KC, but never bought into the BYU system and was replaced because of that.