Kyle Collinsworth's selfishness is losing BYU games.

It's getting frustrating for the 3rd year in a row to watch Collinsworth lose his team games because he can't give up the point guard spot to people that are obviously better. I will even give you last year with Tyler Haws you might want to play KColl at PG because he is too good of a player to come off the bench, and neither he nor Haws can guard shooting guards, so one of them plays SF and one plays PG. I understand the logic there. I don't agree with it, but I get what is trying to happen there.



There is no excuse for starting KC as the Point Guard over Nick Emery this year. Absolutely none. KC guards the other teams' small forward on defense, and Emery guards the point guard in man defense. Anything that KColl does well (posting his man, passing out of a doubleteam, rebounding) he can do from the small forward position, and with the ball out of his hands he would be open to run around the court and make back cuts to the basket (like he did his freshman year with JImmer at the point). I'm not interested in straw man arguments. Kyle has a ton of heart, and a lot of talent. I'm not questioning that. I am questioning if that talent is being used correctly. I don't thing it is.





KC vs. Emery.



Is KC a better dribbler / passer? No.

Does he have better court vision? No.

Is he quicker? No.

Does he shoot better from the FT line (critical for late game situations, and getting fouled driving? No.

Does he have better court vision? No. He dribbles with his head down, and shows no desire to advance the ball upcourt. Probably because it won't result in an assist.

Does he have a better mid-range jumper? No. He has 0 mid range jumper.

Does he shoot better from the 3 line? No, he is terrible from 3, and Emery is the all-time record holder for freshman made 3's.

Does he break the full court press better? No.

Does he push tempo uo the court looking for fast break options? No.



I don't understand it. Rose is a smart man. But, he is dead wrong here, and it has gone on too long. Getting triple doubles is not as important as winning ball games, and I have seen chasing a triple double infect KC's play and decision making.

The title of the OP's post is inaccurate. I've adjusted it in my post.



KC doesn't choose who is point guard, Dave Rose does.

Brayden Green wrote:
It's getting frustrating for the 3rd year in a row to watch Collinsworth lose his team games because he can't give up the point guard spot to people that are obviously better. I will even give you last year with Tyler Haws you might want to play KColl at PG because he is too good of a player to come off the bench, and neither he nor Haws can guard shooting guards, so one of them plays SF and one plays PG. I understand the logic there. I don't agree with it, but I get what is trying to happen there.



There is no excuse for starting KC as the Point Guard over Nick Emery this year. Absolutely none. KC guards the other teams' small forward on defense, and Emery guards the point guard in man defense. Anything that KColl does well (posting his man, passing out of a doubleteam, rebounding) he can do from the small forward position, and with the ball out of his hands he would be open to run around the court and make back cuts to the basket (like he did his freshman year with JImmer at the point). I'm not interested in straw man arguments. Kyle has a ton of heart, and a lot of talent. I'm not questioning that. I am questioning if that talent is being used correctly. I don't thing it is.





KC vs. Emery.



Is KC a better dribbler / passer? No.

Does he have better court vision? No.

Is he quicker? No.

Does he shoot better from the FT line (critical for late game situations, and getting fouled driving? No.

Does he have better court vision? No. He dribbles with his head down, and shows no desire to advance the ball upcourt. Probably because it won't result in an assist.

Does he have a better mid-range jumper? No. He has 0 mid range jumper.

Does he shoot better from the 3 line? No, he is terrible from 3, and Emery is the all-time record holder for freshman made 3's.

Does he break the full court press better? No.

Does he push tempo uo the court looking for fast break options? No.



I don't understand it. Rose is a smart man. But, he is dead wrong here, and it has gone on too long. Getting triple doubles is not as important as winning ball games, and I have seen chasing a triple double infect KC's play and decision making.

I like KC and appreciate all he does, but I am in agreement with you on almost all of your points (and they are many and thorough). For some reason, and I have no idea why, I am at peace with letting this season just run it's course. Pretty much a "Que Sera, Sera" attitude on my part at this point. I will cheer for the team to win every game, but look forward to next year with a more traditional PG running the offense, and seeing Mika and Davis as a tandem in the post. Dastrup and little Haws get me excited as well. From what I hear, the transfer from Elon, Bryant, will step in at the Point quite capably. I think Coach Rose knows it isn't an ideal PG situation. What none of us fans and posters know are the internal dynamics of the team or the pulse of the locker room. It is easy to sit back as a fan and say to hell with it, shake it all up and make some changes. I believe that is much easier said than done. Coach Rose has my trust in doing what is best for the team and program moving forward. I wish him nothing but the best.

Some additional thoughts, back during KC's freshman year there was a video of him talking about how awesome he was and how his favorite position to play was PG. He obviously didn't play point that year, opting to hustle on the glass and take it to the hoop.



KC comes back from his mission and BYU has a legitimate PG already in Carlino. Now, I know Carlino frustrated fans with his brand of "selfish" play, but Carlino could shoot, had better handles than KC, was breaking BYU assist records and doing quite well at the position. There was no need for another PG. At the backup was Winder and Rose was continuing to recruit more PGs (Calvert/Emery). So throwing KC in at PG made little sense. Why do it?



The mismatch! Oh yes, the famous mismatch. I'd give a lot more credence to the mismatch if KC could shoot. Prior to his mission KC scored down in the post, doing what he does now. He did it at the forward position. KC still does the bulk of his scoring the same way. There may be a mismatch at PG but he isn't exploiting it. He's doing the same thing. The appeal of tall players on the perimeter is they can shoot over shorter defenders AND post up. Since KC can't shoot, the mismatch never existed. And, as pointed out, Rose is then left having to cover for KC's inability to guard smaller quicker guards on the other end of the court.



For whatever reason, KC got back from his mission and Rose became bent on playing KC at PG. Carlino said upon leaving BYU that he loved everything about BYU except the basketball. Say what you want about Carlino, but IMHO he had a point. There should have been no minutes taken from Carlino and given to KC. There should have been no PG controversy. KC should have been playing at the small forward. I suspect, KC told Rose he wanted to play point. After a mission, KC could have gone anywhere (he had a great freshman year) and I wouldn't be surprised if that was a contingency or at the very least an overtly expressed desire. KC seems to want no business playing small forward, even though that's where he is best at.



Now, KC is a fabulous player. His tripple doubles are fun (I prefer Ws). Those saying he wouldn't be able to rack up tripple doubles at small forward need to go watch Dreymond Green and Kawhi Leonard play. Plenty of assists can be dolled out as a forward...that's basically where KC is dolling them out anyways. We just don't have a PG.



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Yep, to your point Wolverine, Rose is a player's coach. He molds the offenses around his players and lets them run the games. That creates players like Jimmer, Hartsock, Haws, etc. But it also has its drawbacks. I think he gives his players too much freedom sometimes. Kyle should have been pulled multiple times against Portland for not making extra passes and for dribbling into double and triple teams and not giving the ball up.



To Hawk's point... I think Rose has let Kyle decide what position he will play, and I am not sure if it is something that he can take back this late in the game. I am hoping that Kyle will be the better man and give up the ball to make the team better, but he doesn't seem to want to do that.



Next year we will be much, much better. Next years team will make this team look like a junior high team with its ball hogs dominating the game and everyone else standing around hoping they get a pass. (It's pretty close to that. This team wouldn't know ball reversal if it but it in the face and didn't let go).

I agree with a lot of what is being said, especially that KC has cost us games this year with his selfish play, but it not all as cut and dried as you remember it. KC took over for Carlino because Carlino wouldn't run the offense. Rose gave him plenty of opportunities to be the PG, but he refused to do it Rose's way and he lost his spot. Carlino was great at times and even more frustrating at others. KC is great at times and very frustrating at times as well. I think both of these guys let their egos get into their game and hurt the team in the process.



One other point. With BYUs half court offense I'm not sure it matters who is the PG. All they do is toss it around to each other up top. It's like the no penetration version of the triangle offense.

One other side note, BYU accomplished two things for its tournament resume this week; 1) got a quality win and 2) got a bad loss. Portland beat us, credit to them, but they are not that good. We will beat them by 30 in Provo. These are the dumb losses this team cannot afford to get.

Brayden Green wrote:
It's getting frustrating for the 3rd year in a row to watch Collinsworth lose his team games because he can't give up the point guard spot to people that are obviously better. I will even give you last year with Tyler Haws you might want to play KColl at PG because he is too good of a player to come off the bench, and neither he nor Haws can guard shooting guards, so one of them plays SF and one plays PG. I understand the logic there. I don't agree with it, but I get what is trying to happen there.



There is no excuse for starting KC as the Point Guard over Nick Emery this year. Absolutely none. KC guards the other teams' small forward on defense, and Emery guards the point guard in man defense. Anything that KColl does well (posting his man, passing out of a doubleteam, rebounding) he can do from the small forward position, and with the ball out of his hands he would be open to run around the court and make back cuts to the basket (like he did his freshman year with JImmer at the point). I'm not interested in straw man arguments. Kyle has a ton of heart, and a lot of talent. I'm not questioning that. I am questioning if that talent is being used correctly. I don't thing it is.





KC vs. Emery.



Is KC a better dribbler / passer? No.

Does he have better court vision? No.

Is he quicker? No.

Does he shoot better from the FT line (critical for late game situations, and getting fouled driving? No.

Does he have better court vision? No. He dribbles with his head down, and shows no desire to advance the ball upcourt. Probably because it won't result in an assist.

Does he have a better mid-range jumper? No. He has 0 mid range jumper.

Does he shoot better from the 3 line? No, he is terrible from 3, and Emery is the all-time record holder for freshman made 3's.

Does he break the full court press better? No.

Does he push tempo uo the court looking for fast break options? No.



I don't understand it. Rose is a smart man. But, he is dead wrong here, and it has gone on too long. Getting triple doubles is not as important as winning ball games, and I have seen chasing a triple double infect KC's play and decision making.

I'm snoscythe, and I approve this message.



I was excited for KC to get his record primarily so that Rose could adjust the lineup with an eye toward team efficiency and winning games rather than getting triple doubles for an out-of-position senior. Hasn't happened yet.

To be fair, most of this team has played selfishly this year -- KC, Fischer, Emery, even guys like Davis to a degree. It's the reason this season has been so frustrating; we can all see the talent that's on our team, but we lose to teams like freaking Portland because we don't play as a team.

I personally don't think Emery is ready to be PG. He is trying to do the same things he did in high school against D-1 talent. That doesn't work at this level. How many times has he taken it in (and Fischer for that matter too) and been an easy block by one of the trees in the key. Kyle is able to play at the rim or above it so he is not so easily blocked. And if you don't believe me that the greatly increased athleticism isn't bothering Emery count how many times when he is the PG that he will take it in and either just force it up and get blocked or leave his feet and try to make a desperation pass. He has a lot to learn, the first of which is that he is not playing in high school anymore. Nearly every player on the court and on the bench was the best player on their previous team and many of them were first team or second team all state players from the last four years. Penetrate and dish, and when the forwards start fading to get out to the three point shooter fake it and pass to an open man behind the center and every so often fake the passes and lay it in or pull up for a 6 to 8 foot jumper because the D has no idea where you are going with the ball and are standing flat footed. When Emery starts doing that he will be devastating because he is a shooter (I bet would hit 70-80% of s-8ft pull up jumpers) whereas, KC needs to be at the rim to make the shot (he is one of the worst shooters I have ever seen-he splits his feet on three pointers!).



One of the big problems for our offense that I see is that our guards are not moving as well as they should and our offense is way off. Why does it keep happening when a guard penetrates that the kick out goes to Austin or KD or a non shooter? Every kick out should be going to an open three point shooter. When they do we hit way more three point shots because we get much cleaner looks. But for some reason the ball ends up in the hands of Austin on the outside way more times than it should.



Also we need someone to teach our guards how to run the pick and roll. They are AWFUL going around screens set by their teammates. Watch and see how much space there is when they go around it. They should be rubbing their teammate but instead they leave as much as a foot between them and the "screener". This lets the defender stay on them (or leads to an offensive foul) and then they don't get the split second they need to catch and shoot because the defender is already there. Also they never pass the ball on the roll (when our guy does roll). These are bball 101 and are ways to make the defense play back a little. Hit on a few nice rolls and watch how open the shooters get.



I think the biggest weakness is our D. We need a specialist to come in and teach them how to execute it. We give up way too many open three pointers because the off man keeps collapsing in way earlier than they should and is out of position. It's like they are trying to be sneaky or something and suddenly a quick pass finds their man open with an open three pointer.



That's my opinion (and what frustrates me most).

imuakahuku wrote:
I personally don't think Emery is ready to be PG. He is trying to do the same things he did in high school against D-1 talent. That doesn't work at this level. How many times has he taken it in (and Fischer for that matter too) and been an easy block by one of the trees in the key. Kyle is able to play at the rim or above it so he is not so easily blocked. And if you don't believe me that the greatly increased athleticism isn't bothering Emery count how many times when he is the PG that he will take it in and either just force it up and get blocked or leave his feet and try to make a desperation pass.

Thanks imua. I respect your opinion and agree largely with what you have said. I don't see the above statement as being specifically to Emery. Collinsworth and Fischer (senior "guards") make the same mistake as much or more. I can't count on two hands how many times Kyle dribbles into triple teams a game, and then either forces a bad shot or turns it over.



Empty possessions are killing this team, because can't stop anyone playing zone defense. Chase and Kcoll are below average defenders and are out of position nearly all game.



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Brayden Green wrote:

I personally don't think Emery is ready to be PG. He is trying to do the same things he did in high school against D-1 talent. That doesn't work at this level. How many times has he taken it in (and Fischer for that matter too) and been an easy block by one of the trees in the key. Kyle is able to play at the rim or above it so he is not so easily blocked. And if you don't believe me that the greatly increased athleticism isn't bothering Emery count how many times when he is the PG that he will take it in and either just force it up and get blocked or leave his feet and try to make a desperation pass.

Thanks imua. I respect your opinion and agree largely with what you have said. I don't see the above statement as being specifically to Emery. Collinsworth and Fischer (senior "guards") make the same mistake as much or more. I can't count on two hands how many times Kyle dribbles into triple teams a game, and then either forces a bad shot or turns it over.



Empty possessions are killing this team, because can't stop anyone playing zone defense. Chase and Kcoll are below average defenders and are out of position nearly all game.



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I agree. KC does it too. He just gets away with it more because of his height. I guess my point with Emery is he can't get away with taking on trees as much as KC. But I am sure Emery will be the better scorer. I just wish he would pull up more instead of trying to take it all the way to the rim. I cringe every and I do mean every time KC takes a shot further than six inches from the rim. I almost never cringe when Emery shoots. Not even when it is from Jimmer land. I just wish he would learn to pull up in the key and pop it (I have never been a fan of floaters). I think Emery is a big time threat.



I also believe that the whole shot selection for this team sometime goes south. At times it seems nobody is either moving without the ball or they don't want to take the shot. I think if this team would just clean up the fundimentals they could become a real good team. As it is I think they have to win out the rest of the regular season and make the championship game to get an invite (which could mean two wins over SMC or Gonzaga).



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imuakahuku wrote:
I personally don't think Emery is ready to be PG. He is trying to do the same things he did in high school against D-1 talent. That doesn't work at this level. How many times has he taken it in (and Fischer for that matter too) and been an easy block by one of the trees in the key. Kyle is able to play at the rim or above it so he is not so easily blocked. And if you don't believe me that the greatly increased athleticism isn't bothering Emery count how many times when he is the PG that he will take it in and either just force it up and get blocked or leave his feet and try to make a desperation pass. He has a lot to learn, the first of which is that he is not playing in high school anymore. Nearly every player on the court and on the bench was the best player on their previous team and many of them were first team or second team all state players from the last four years. Penetrate and dish, and when the forwards start fading to get out to the three point shooter fake it and pass to an open man behind the center and every so often fake the passes and lay it in or pull up for a 6 to 8 foot jumper because the D has no idea where you are going with the ball and are standing flat footed. When Emery starts doing that he will be devastating because he is a shooter (I bet would hit 70-80% of s-8ft pull up jumpers) whereas, KC needs to be at the rim to make the shot (he is one of the worst shooters I have ever seen-he splits his feet on three pointers!).



One of the big problems for our offense that I see is that our guards are not moving as well as they should and our offense is way off. Why does it keep happening when a guard penetrates that the kick out goes to Austin or KD or a non shooter? Every kick out should be going to an open three point shooter. When they do we hit way more three point shots because we get much cleaner looks. But for some reason the ball ends up in the hands of Austin on the outside way more times than it should.



Also we need someone to teach our guards how to run the pick and roll. They are AWFUL going around screens set by their teammates. Watch and see how much space there is when they go around it. They should be rubbing their teammate but instead they leave as much as a foot between them and the "screener". This lets the defender stay on them (or leads to an offensive foul) and then they don't get the split second they need to catch and shoot because the defender is already there. Also they never pass the ball on the roll (when our guy does roll). These are bball 101 and are ways to make the defense play back a little. Hit on a few nice rolls and watch how open the shooters get.



I think the biggest weakness is our D. We need a specialist to come in and teach them how to execute it. We give up way too many open three pointers because the off man keeps collapsing in way earlier than they should and is out of position. It's like they are trying to be sneaky or something and suddenly a quick pass finds their man open with an open three pointer.



That's my opinion (and what frustrates me most).

Everything you mentioned her is not a player issue, it is a coaching issue.

frdbtr wrote:

I personally don't think Emery is ready to be PG. He is trying to do the same things he did in high school against D-1 talent. That doesn't work at this level. How many times has he taken it in (and Fischer for that matter too) and been an easy block by one of the trees in the key. Kyle is able to play at the rim or above it so he is not so easily blocked. And if you don't believe me that the greatly increased athleticism isn't bothering Emery count how many times when he is the PG that he will take it in and either just force it up and get blocked or leave his feet and try to make a desperation pass. He has a lot to learn, the first of which is that he is not playing in high school anymore. Nearly every player on the court and on the bench was the best player on their previous team and many of them were first team or second team all state players from the last four years. Penetrate and dish, and when the forwards start fading to get out to the three point shooter fake it and pass to an open man behind the center and every so often fake the passes and lay it in or pull up for a 6 to 8 foot jumper because the D has no idea where you are going with the ball and are standing flat footed. When Emery starts doing that he will be devastating because he is a shooter (I bet would hit 70-80% of s-8ft pull up jumpers) whereas, KC needs to be at the rim to make the shot (he is one of the worst shooters I have ever seen-he splits his feet on three pointers!).



One of the big problems for our offense that I see is that our guards are not moving as well as they should and our offense is way off. Why does it keep happening when a guard penetrates that the kick out goes to Austin or KD or a non shooter? Every kick out should be going to an open three point shooter. When they do we hit way more three point shots because we get much cleaner looks. But for some reason the ball ends up in the hands of Austin on the outside way more times than it should.



Also we need someone to teach our guards how to run the pick and roll. They are AWFUL going around screens set by their teammates. Watch and see how much space there is when they go around it. They should be rubbing their teammate but instead they leave as much as a foot between them and the "screener". This lets the defender stay on them (or leads to an offensive foul) and then they don't get the split second they need to catch and shoot because the defender is already there. Also they never pass the ball on the roll (when our guy does roll). These are bball 101 and are ways to make the defense play back a little. Hit on a few nice rolls and watch how open the shooters get.



I think the biggest weakness is our D. We need a specialist to come in and teach them how to execute it. We give up way too many open three pointers because the off man keeps collapsing in way earlier than they should and is out of position. It's like they are trying to be sneaky or something and suddenly a quick pass finds their man open with an open three pointer.



That's my opinion (and what frustrates me most).

Everything you mentioned her is not a player issue, it is a coaching issue.

Yep But it also means that most of this can be fixed.

Some of you are showing your level of education. KCs is A Sr, a three year statrer at point (mostly) very experienced, shot at NBA (most certainly not as PG), A floor captain, team captain, and had the ball in his hands most of his HS and college playing career. I'm pretty certain Rose isnt telling him to drive into triple teams. Rose should get credit for not throwing in freshman who aren't ready to be PG. KC needs to wise up and when he has this team has done much better. But he gets selfish, careless, and to some degree seems arrogant. As does streaky Fisher.

imuakahuku wrote:

imuakahuku wrote:
I personally don't think Emery is ready to be PG. He is trying to do the same things he did in high school against D-1 talent. That doesn't work at this level. How many times has he taken it in (and Fischer for that matter too) and been an easy block by one of the trees in the key. Kyle is able to play at the rim or above it so he is not so easily blocked. And if you don't believe me that the greatly increased athleticism isn't bothering Emery count how many times when he is the PG that he will take it in and either just force it up and get blocked or leave his feet and try to make a desperation pass. He has a lot to learn, the first of which is that he is not playing in high school anymore. Nearly every player on the court and on the bench was the best player on their previous team and many of them were first team or second team all state players from the last four years. Penetrate and dish, and when the forwards start fading to get out to the three point shooter fake it and pass to an open man behind the center and every so often fake the passes and lay it in or pull up for a 6 to 8 foot jumper because the D has no idea where you are going with the ball and are standing flat footed. When Emery starts doing that he will be devastating because he is a shooter (I bet would hit 70-80% of s-8ft pull up jumpers) whereas, KC needs to be at the rim to make the shot (he is one of the worst shooters I have ever seen-he splits his feet on three pointers!).



One of the big problems for our offense that I see is that our guards are not moving as well as they should and our offense is way off. Why does it keep happening when a guard penetrates that the kick out goes to Austin or KD or a non shooter? Every kick out should be going to an open three point shooter. When they do we hit way more three point shots because we get much cleaner looks. But for some reason the ball ends up in the hands of Austin on the outside way more times than it should.



Also we need someone to teach our guards how to run the pick and roll. They are AWFUL going around screens set by their teammates. Watch and see how much space there is when they go around it. They should be rubbing their teammate but instead they leave as much as a foot between them and the "screener". This lets the defender stay on them (or leads to an offensive foul) and then they don't get the split second they need to catch and shoot because the defender is already there. Also they never pass the ball on the roll (when our guy does roll). These are bball 101 and are ways to make the defense play back a little. Hit on a few nice rolls and watch how open the shooters get.



I think the biggest weakness is our D. We need a specialist to come in and teach them how to execute it. We give up way too many open three pointers because the off man keeps collapsing in way earlier than they should and is out of position. It's like they are trying to be sneaky or something and suddenly a quick pass finds their man open with an open three pointer.



That's my opinion (and what frustrates me most).

Everything you mentioned her is not a player issue, it is a coaching issue.

Yep But it also means that most of this can be fixed.

I agree. Hopefully as the year goes on, we will see this stuff go away. I am a bit disappointed it has taken this long though after some of the early losses those lessons should have been learned. The loss at Portland is inexcusable IMO.

I'm afraid KC read this thread and now is killing us with unselfishness. No shots 15 minutes in and we're getting worked.



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The problem tonight is defense. LMU is shooting 80% from the field. Teams don't do that unless everything is wide open.

frdbtr wrote:
The problem tonight is defense. LMU is shooting 80% from the field. Teams don't do that unless everything is wide open.

It's amazing were this close when we allowed a 0-20 point run. 9/11 on threes was ridiculous



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15 assists, 3-1 a-t ratio; 13 rebounds, 10 points = win. LMU IS decent. But if

KC could cut out a few TOs each game he would meet his full potential. Oh and 6 steals-- he was approaching a quadruple double. He does have weaknesses. So did Jimmer. If KC gets two more triples, and keeps sharing the ball, he could double old record. Unbelievable. Unbreakable. Yes Ws are more important, but just as announcer said, when he has ball in his hands, great things happen. He ain't perfect. AMAZINGLY!