Archived Topic

I can't go through this again

by EM_Puma · 1/4/2016

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EM_Puma
Seriously I can't go through another period of speculation on joining a P5 conference.



I have simply dismissed everything on the subject until Dave McCann tweeted about it. I let myself be dragged down that same road a few years back when, after a long period of silence, Greg Wrubell finally tweeted that it looked to him like we were going, and then we didn't. I've never seen him mention anything publicly again on the subject, nor would I expect to unless he was absolutely certain. I believe he also was bamboozled back then as he was likewise led down that primrose path of speculation.



CB is just going nuts over this stuff again (I mean they never let it die, but the volume has definitely been turned up).
W
Wolverine
EM_Puma wrote:
Seriously I can't go through another period of speculation on joining a P5 conference.



I have simply dismissed everything on the subject until Dave McCann tweeted about it. I let myself be dragged down that same road a few years back when, after a long period of silence, Greg Wrubell finally tweeted that it looked to him like we were going, and then we didn't. I've never seen him mention anything publicly again on the subject, nor would I expect to unless he was absolutely certain. I believe he also was bamboozled back then as he was likewise led down that primrose path of speculation.



CB is just going nuts over this stuff again (I mean they never let it die, but the volume has definitely been turned up).

I will only allow myself to believe it when I am actually sitting in LES at the end of November during rivalry week and BYU is playing their true rival, The Iowa State Cyclones, for the privilege of playing in the Big 12's 5th level bowl game. Then and only then will I know for sure that we are finally on a level playing field with those P5 Utes ;)
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blue42
I have also heard that Patrick Kennihan, a local sports radio guy is also tweeting out that BYU and Big 12 are currently in talks. As much as I am not a fan of PK, he usually doesn't tweet stuff unless he is very sure about it.
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Schmoe
I'm not going to think anything until the decision on Jan 15 as to whether the Big XII has to have 12 teams for a championship game. Once that decision's made, I'll start to care.
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scott715
Being in talks does not mean a lot. They have to do their due diligence before making any move and will talk to several candidates. Think of it as an interview. With that said it is good to talk to them and make our argument of why we would be good. We have a very good case.



Or it could be because the world financial markets are going crazy today.
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Stirfry
blue42 wrote:
I have also heard that Patrick Kennihan, a local sports radio guy is also tweeting out that BYU and Big 12 are currently in talks. As much as I am not a fan of PK, he usually doesn't tweet stuff unless he is very sure about it.


He basically started all the talks today. Problem is his employer also started sock gate and then doubled and tripled down on it so take it for what it's worth.



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blue42
Stirfry wrote:
I have also heard that Patrick Kennihan, a local sports radio guy is also tweeting out that BYU and Big 12 are currently in talks. As much as I am not a fan of PK, he usually doesn't tweet stuff unless he is very sure about it.


He basically started all the talks today. Problem is his employer also started sock gate and then doubled and tripled down on it so take it for what it's worth.



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you are probably correct, his boss is the one that started sockgate earlier this year.
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BoiseBYU
EM_Puma wrote:
Seriously I can't go through another period of speculation on joining a P5 conference.



I have simply dismissed everything on the subject until Dave McCann tweeted about it. I let myself be dragged down that same road a few years back when, after a long period of silence, Greg Wrubell finally tweeted that it looked to him like we were going, and then we didn't. I've never seen him mention anything publicly again on the subject, nor would I expect to unless he was absolutely certain. I believe he also was bamboozled back then as he was likewise led down that primrose path of speculation.



CB is just going nuts over this stuff again (I mean they never let it die, but the volume has definitely been turned up).


It ain't happening. If it does, then it is all the more awesome. BUT it ain't happening.
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BOID
I will not get worked up over this. As I have stated before, I like independence for BYU. I think it brings more exposure than conference membership would, even if it were a P5 conference. 8)



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runbyu1
BOID, I think I'm actually with you. In many ways I prefer independence to being in a conference. We get more exposure, get to play in more places against incredible oponents, etc. I think opponents will eventually start coming to Provo and that the NY6 bowl situation will eventually work itself out at as well.
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EM_Puma
I wonder how much it means that BYU could enter the conference tomorrow if they so desire (I don't believe the ESPN contract would prohibit that). Didn't most of the other conferences enact such stiff penalties that their members wouldn't be able to leave very quickly and without substantial cost?



Seriously, that didn't buy anything the last time, but a lot happened in the aftermath supposedly to curtail some of that action.



Realistically, I put the rumors on about a 2 or 3 on the scale of 10 with 10 being an official invite. I base that on the logical point of distance of conference members. If we were at least 300 hundred miles closer to the epicenter of the conference, that would add a notch or two, but I just don't logically see this.
G
Guest
Let me help you out.



BYU will not be invited to the Big12.



BYU will not be invited to the Pac16.



You can sleep easier now.
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EM_Puma
hawkwing wrote:
Let me help you out.



BYU will not be invited to the Big12.



BYU will not be invited to the Pac16.



You can sleep easier now.


Who spit on your Cheerios?



;)
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BOID
runbyu1 wrote:
BOID, I think I'm actually with you. In many ways I prefer independence to being in a conference. We get more exposure, get to play in more places against incredible oponents, etc. I think opponents will eventually start coming to Provo and that the NY6 bowl situation will eventually work itself out at as well.


Agree with you here also. I would like to point out another perspective regarding BYU independence that I find interesting. It is this: The longer that BYU remains independent, the more that BYU becomes another Notre Dame! Let me explain:



Warning! Lengthy Post! But fear not, it is mostly optimism, not soap box. If optimism is too tedious for some, then they may feel free to skip and move on. Disclaimer: the following opinions are merely my own and no association with other persons, living or dead, should be implied.



1... We often hear Uties and other haters attempt to scorn BYU by saying things like "Byu is so ridiculous for thinking that they could be like ND!" This is like Zoolander saying to Hansel: "You think you're too cool for school. But let me tell you something. You aren't!" The Uties sound just as lame saying this, but each and every time that they do, they are associating BYU and ND in the same sentence. They even put it on-line in Tweets and on Face Book, and countless forums. It's funny that they don't realize that this has the opposite long term effect than they think it does.



2... News media and reporters do it too. We read and hear items like: " BYU hoped to follow the ND model of independence, but they are finding out that they are not quite ND." Not quite? Doesn't that mean "partly," or "not completely," which is essentially the same as "almost?"



3... The more these comparisons are made, the more the association is strengthened. Discussions of one party end up evoking mention of the other, meaning that they have become linked. The big question becomes, "Is BYU, or is BYU not, another Notre Dame?" Then the label "ND of the West," begins to be thrown around. So you get the idea how, even negative comparisons, when bandied about frequently, become linked together, like Yin and Yang.



4... ND and BYU have become associated as the two non-members of P5's that qualify as P5 competition, exclusively so by the ACC. This would not have happened without BYU's move to independent status. And, no, Army and NMSU do not pass muster with any CFP, or other committee, or other thinking people, as being equivalent to ND and BYU. Army was added as a political dig, by the SEC and Big 10, but Army just doesn't have the SOS clout, and everyone knows it.



5... Since going independent, BYU has experienced increasing opportunities to schedule games in nationally famous venues, such as NFL stadiums. This is very Notre-Dame-like.



6... BYU's recruiting has become very exciting. This partly due to future schedules, and partly due to new coaches. Think Handsome Tanielu, and not Garrett Bolles. There is undeniably an upward trend in the athleticism and star value of BYU's recruits. This is also driven by independence, and is another way BYU is becoming more like ND.



7... Independence has become more exclusive. Of the four (I think there's only four) FBS teams that have remained independent, only BYU and ND stand out. Some have touted the loss of Miami, Penn St, Navy, Utah St, etc from the ranks of the independent, as an ominous, bad sign. But I don't think that it is, at least not for us. BYU is doing something here that most teams, including the Uties, could never muster the resources for. For BYU, this is expensive, but worth it. For most of the others, impossible. BYU and ND have dominated the amount of independent program ink, as well as the All-Independent 1st and 2nd Team selections put out by the media. In summary, the FBS Independent classification only has two relevant members left: Notre Dame and BYU!



Why am I going on like this? It's because of the inevitable trend for BYU to be seen as another ND for ALL purposes, and not just for scheduling. It will come, and in the not too distant future. If BYU plays similar teams in similar venues as ND, then they will be the same as ND. Equivalent access to the CFP will be yielded up. I believe that independence provides the shortest path to this goal. BYU won't even have to get double digit wins every year, like they would in the Big 12, for example, to pull this level of respect. Having the courage to go independent, and the means to maintain independence with a big time schedule, will draw the respect. The occasional big winning season as an independent will be remembered for a long time. Being a rival of Iowa St. or Kansas State will not bring BYU as much fame as would being a peer to ND in independence.



Call me crazy, but I would actually be a bit disappointed to see BYU give up the limelight it has, along with an exclusive ESPN contract (should be extended; can't imagine how it could not be), and BYUtv broadcast rights, just to join the Big 12 and be subject to Big 12 rules (that benefit TX and OU), and exit penalties, etc. BYU can afford independence, and the costs/opportunity costs of same will be well offset by the amazing exposure that independence brings. We're just beginning to see that now in 2015 and especially in the 2016/17 schedules. The momentum is upward, with recruiting, amazing new coaches, venues, and just about everything. That's why I'm not stressing out as a fan. I'm just going to sit back and enjoy the ride.



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T
TulaneVandyRiceCoug
I'm hearing it from a work colleague today. Word on the street is that Tom Holmoe has big 12 discussions going. No idea how much or how serious, but there's conversation.



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Screamineagle
BOID wrote:
BOID, I think I'm actually with you. In many ways I prefer independence to being in a conference. We get more exposure, get to play in more places against incredible oponents, etc. I think opponents will eventually start coming to Provo and that the NY6 bowl situation will eventually work itself out at as well.


Agree with you here also. I would like to point out another perspective regarding BYU independence that I find interesting. It is this: The longer that BYU remains independent, the more that BYU becomes another Notre Dame! Let me explain:



Warning! Lengthy Post! But fear not, it is mostly optimism, not soap box. If optimism is too tedious for some, then they may feel free to skip and move on. Disclaimer: the following opinions are merely my own and no association with other persons, living or dead, should be implied.



1... We often hear Uties and other haters attempt to scorn BYU by saying things like "Byu is so ridiculous for thinking that they could be like ND!" This is like Zoolander saying to Hansel: "You think you're too cool for school. But let me tell you something. You aren't!" The Uties sound just as lame saying this, but each and every time that they do, they are associating BYU and ND in the same sentence. They even put it on-line in Tweets and on Face Book, and countless forums. It's funny that they don't realize that this has the opposite long term effect than they think it does.



2... News media and reporters do it too. We read and hear items like: " BYU hoped to follow the ND model of independence, but they are finding out that they are not quite ND." Not quite? Doesn't that mean "partly," or "not completely," which is essentially the same as "almost?"



3... The more these comparisons are made, the more the association is strengthened. Discussions of one party end up evoking mention of the other, meaning that they have become linked. The big question becomes, "Is BYU, or is BYU not, another Notre Dame?" Then the label "ND of the West," begins to be thrown around. So you get the idea how, even negative comparisons, when bandied about frequently, become linked together, like Yin and Yang.



4... ND and BYU have become associated as the two non-members of P5's that qualify as P5 competition, exclusively so by the ACC. This would not have happened without BYU's move to independent status. And, no, Army and NMSU do not pass muster with any CFP, or other committee, or other thinking people, as being equivalent to ND and BYU. Army was added as a political dig, by the SEC and Big 10, but Army just doesn't have the SOS clout, and everyone knows it.



5... Since going independent, BYU has experienced increasing opportunities to schedule games in nationally famous venues, such as NFL stadiums. This is very Notre-Dame-like.



6... BYU's recruiting has become very exciting. This partly due to future schedules, and partly due to new coaches. Think Handsome Tanielu, and not Garrett Bolles. There is undeniably an upward trend in the athleticism and star value of BYU's recruits. This is also driven by independence, and is another way BYU is becoming more like ND.



7... Independence has become more exclusive. Of the four (I think there's only four) FBS teams that have remained independent, only BYU and ND stand out. Some have touted the loss of Miami, Penn St, Navy, Utah St, etc from the ranks of the independent, as an ominous, bad sign. But I don't think that it is, at least not for us. BYU is doing something here that most teams, including the Uties, could never muster the resources for. For BYU, this is expensive, but worth it. For most of the others, impossible. BYU and ND have dominated the amount of independent program ink, as well as the All-Independent 1st and 2nd Team selections put out by the media. In summary, the FBS Independent classification only has two relevant members left: Notre Dame and BYU!



Why am I going on like this? It's because of the inevitable trend for BYU to be seen as another ND for ALL purposes, and not just for scheduling. It will come, and in the not too distant future. If BYU plays similar teams in similar venues as ND, then they will be the same as ND. Equivalent access to the CFP will be yielded up. I believe that independence provides the shortest path to this goal. BYU won't even have to get double digit wins every year, like they would in the Big 12, for example, to pull this level of respect. Having the courage to go independent, and the means to maintain independence with a big time schedule, will draw the respect. The occasional big winning season as an independent will be remembered for a long time. Being a rival of Iowa St. or Kansas State will not bring BYU as much fame as would being a peer to ND in independence.



Call me crazy, but I would actually be a bit disappointed to see BYU give up the limelight it has, along with an exclusive ESPN contract (should be extended; can't imagine how it could not be), and BYUtv broadcast rights, just to join the Big 12 and be subject to Big 12 rules (that benefit TX and OU), and exit penalties, etc. BYU can afford independence, and the costs/opportunity costs of same will be well offset by the amazing exposure that independence brings. We're just beginning to see that now in 2015 and especially in the 2016/17 schedules. The momentum is upward, with recruiting, amazing new coaches, venues, and just about everything. That's why I'm not stressing out as a fan. I'm just going to sit back and enjoy the ride.



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I like what you say here.However, there is one other piece to this puzzle.They are going to have to win consistently.
S
Stirfry
Screamineagle wrote:
runbyu1 wrote:
BOID, I think I'm actually with you. In many ways I prefer independence to being in a conference. We get more exposure, get to play in more places against incredible oponents, etc. I think opponents will eventually start coming to Provo and that the NY6 bowl situation will eventually work itself out at as well.


Agree with you here also. I would like to point out another perspective regarding BYU independence that I find interesting. It is this: The longer that BYU remains independent, the more that BYU becomes another Notre Dame! Let me explain:



Warning! Lengthy Post! But fear not, it is mostly optimism, not soap box. If optimism is too tedious for some, then they may feel free to skip and move on. Disclaimer: the following opinions are merely my own and no association with other persons, living or dead, should be implied.



1... We often hear Uties and other haters attempt to scorn BYU by saying things like "Byu is so ridiculous for thinking that they could be like ND!" This is like Zoolander saying to Hansel: "You think you're too cool for school. But let me tell you something. You aren't!" The Uties sound just as lame saying this, but each and every time that they do, they are associating BYU and ND in the same sentence. They even put it on-line in Tweets and on Face Book, and countless forums. It's funny that they don't realize that this has the opposite long term effect than they think it does.



2... News media and reporters do it too. We read and hear items like: " BYU hoped to follow the ND model of independence, but they are finding out that they are not quite ND." Not quite? Doesn't that mean "partly," or "not completely," which is essentially the same as "almost?"



3... The more these comparisons are made, the more the association is strengthened. Discussions of one party end up evoking mention of the other, meaning that they have become linked. The big question becomes, "Is BYU, or is BYU not, another Notre Dame?" Then the label "ND of the West," begins to be thrown around. So you get the idea how, even negative comparisons, when bandied about frequently, become linked together, like Yin and Yang.



4... ND and BYU have become associated as the two non-members of P5's that qualify as P5 competition, exclusively so by the ACC. This would not have happened without BYU's move to independent status. And, no, Army and NMSU do not pass muster with any CFP, or other committee, or other thinking people, as being equivalent to ND and BYU. Army was added as a political dig, by the SEC and Big 10, but Army just doesn't have the SOS clout, and everyone knows it.



5... Since going independent, BYU has experienced increasing opportunities to schedule games in nationally famous venues, such as NFL stadiums. This is very Notre-Dame-like.



6... BYU's recruiting has become very exciting. This partly due to future schedules, and partly due to new coaches. Think Handsome Tanielu, and not Garrett Bolles. There is undeniably an upward trend in the athleticism and star value of BYU's recruits. This is also driven by independence, and is another way BYU is becoming more like ND.



7... Independence has become more exclusive. Of the four (I think there's only four) FBS teams that have remained independent, only BYU and ND stand out. Some have touted the loss of Miami, Penn St, Navy, Utah St, etc from the ranks of the independent, as an ominous, bad sign. But I don't think that it is, at least not for us. BYU is doing something here that most teams, including the Uties, could never muster the resources for. For BYU, this is expensive, but worth it. For most of the others, impossible. BYU and ND have dominated the amount of independent program ink, as well as the All-Independent 1st and 2nd Team selections put out by the media. In summary, the FBS Independent classification only has two relevant members left: Notre Dame and BYU!



Why am I going on like this? It's because of the inevitable trend for BYU to be seen as another ND for ALL purposes, and not just for scheduling. It will come, and in the not too distant future. If BYU plays similar teams in similar venues as ND, then they will be the same as ND. Equivalent access to the CFP will be yielded up. I believe that independence provides the shortest path to this goal. BYU won't even have to get double digit wins every year, like they would in the Big 12, for example, to pull this level of respect. Having the courage to go independent, and the means to maintain independence with a big time schedule, will draw the respect. The occasional big winning season as an independent will be remembered for a long time. Being a rival of Iowa St. or Kansas State will not bring BYU as much fame as would being a peer to ND in independence.



Call me crazy, but I would actually be a bit disappointed to see BYU give up the limelight it has, along with an exclusive ESPN contract (should be extended; can't imagine how it could not be), and BYUtv broadcast rights, just to join the Big 12 and be subject to Big 12 rules (that benefit TX and OU), and exit penalties, etc. BYU can afford independence, and the costs/opportunity costs of same will be well offset by the amazing exposure that independence brings. We're just beginning to see that now in 2015 and especially in the 2016/17 schedules. The momentum is upward, with recruiting, amazing new coaches, venues, and just about everything. That's why I'm not stressing out as a fan. I'm just going to sit back and enjoy the ride.



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I like what you say here.However, there is one other piece to this puzzle.They are going to have to win consistently.


And run the risk of the P5 eventually saying "we're no longer D1, we're now our own league/division and we're not allowing each other to play you (I.e. We're done sharing our brand value with you.) If state schools can already agree to not play other state schools that are FCS what would stop them from not playing the Utah states of the world? Coaches may want some warm up games but conferences want money even more. Why share it anymore? They don't really event try to say its amateur athletics and collegiate any longer.



The rich will continue to get richer and you have to be either with them or without them. I like independence but the power brokers will squeeze us out. Utah/Chris Hill has actively tried to decredit BYU in the last 5 years and even though they're our rival they are also probably the school that would/should be most likely to be our advocate due to our history together.



The college football fan and tax payer in me hates it and I really think it will ruin college football. The capitalist in me agrees with it.



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Fido
Even if talks are happening, it doesn't mean anything until things get done. Why get too wound up until that happens. People let their expectations get the best of themselves too often.
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BOID
Stirfry, I get your point, and I agree that what you described is a bad scenario. I remain optimistic, however, because of two beliefs that I hold.



First, is that I believe in the duration of BYU's marketability as a recognized brand and SOS booster. As the "power" conferences jocky for position in the contest for inclusion or seeding in the play-offs, they are going to be looking to impress the CFP Commitee by bolstering SOS. The other P5 members are going to be mostly scheduled up. An independent program offering a larger number of open dates is going to remain attractive, especially when it boasts a Nationally recognized brand, and strong ratings for its own SOS. Even Notre Dame is not as available for this as it used to be, and we all know why (ND's scheduling commitment with ACC). The USUs of the G5 world will always be limted in their SOS prestige by the conference company that they keep. Even Boise St suffers from this. After the quest for exposure, P5 equivalence is the next most important goal BYU had in ditching the MWC. The exclusion that you fear is more of a possibility for the G5 conferences than it is for a powerful independent. BYU has already been rewarded with higher status than what G5's have. BYU's status will only be determined by its own ambition to schedule, and not by its past conference affiliations. That history will grow dimmer and dimmer as BYU continues to rack up impressive schedules. As I said before, 8:5 seasons against tough schedules should be enough to maintain the respect, the status, while there will be occasional out-standing seasons, maybe, one out of ten, like all big-time programs realize. Summary: BYU is not a "mid-major" anymore. Only Uties are saying that, and only because they fear the opposite has happened (BYU's Major Independent status).



My second belief leading to optimism, is that these "power conferences can not afford to boycott BYU as a SOS booster. The only way they could do that is to expand to super-conference size, until all 12 season games are against each other. I don't see how that level of expansion can occur without including BYU. I know there is some anti-Mormon bigotry in a few Big 12 programs (example: Oklahoma), as well as generalized anti-Christian sentiment in the secular leftist PAC 12 (especially Stanford and Cal). I do not expect BYU to be an 11th or 12th addition to the Big 12, or the 13th or 14th addition to the PAC 12. However, I cannot imagine a group of four or five 16 member super conferences without BYU and BSU being included, somewhere. Once conferences get that big, then geography will not matter any more, and even the religious bigotry issue will become diluted. Strength of conference will remain a powerful priority and an inducement to bring in programs with real competitive power.



Of these two scenarios, what do I think will happen? I predict that super-conferences do not happen, and that the surviving power conference members will continue to need 3 or 4 non-conference games, and that BYU's strong, independent schedule will keep the Cougars in demand as that essential SOS booster. I predict that BYU continues to be shut out of the P5 conferences growing from 10 to 12, or from present 12 to 14 members. And I don't care. The reason I don't care, is that I like independence for BYU, and I am optimistic that a place of importance will persist for an independent BYU, long into the future.



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Fido
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