More Senior PT = More Losses. Rose, take the team back!

This needs to become a defensive team that plays man defense and scores in transition, you know, like it was before KC became our main point guard. Our seniors are hands down our worst defenders at each position, and I don't think that whatever offense they *might* bring to the table counterract their horrible defense and lack of hustle.



0 points in transition, for the umpteenth time this season. BYU just doesn't score in transition anymore. Maybe because the person insisting on bringing the ball down the court doesn't dribble with his head up... Just a thought.



Sorry guys, this isn't Kyle Collinsworth's team. He hardly plays defense and has no clue what he is doing on offense half of the time. You might be shocked to hear me say this (tic), but he is a small forward with average at best handles, no jumper, dribbles with his head down and misses wide open cuts/streaks to the basket. The tape is out, and it is well studied. All you need to do against KColl is when he drives in with his head down recklessly, wait for the spin (he is going to spin) then have the guard take away the passing lanes in the key, and have your bigs stand up tall and wait for him to deliver the ball into their outstretched arms. Then, throw an outlet pass to one of your guards or forwards running down the court, because we have our guard tangled up with 2 more of our players under the offensive hoop.



It's sad, really. Kyle really missed his calling. Kyle's template to the NBA is Kawhi Leonard. He is nowhere near the athlete, but he should have been learning that game... posting his guy, shooting a good fade away... breaking out into the open court TO RECEIVE A PASS for an easy layup... shooting the corner three... setting screens around the key and making a living with back cuts to the basket and offensive putbacks - Kyle is good at all those things, or could learn them easily.



Instead, he has decided to be a point guard with his limited point guard skillset which doesn't translate (as measured against legit D-1 competition). I know that he is the king of the triple double, and I respect that... but the team would be SO much better if he wasn't the primary handler of the ball. It is selfishness to go after personal records when it hurts the team, and it does. Just watch a BYU game against a decent school. He disappears. Everything he is good at (posting and shooting over his man, slashing, dumping the ball off on a drive when the D crashes, rebounding the ball) can be done from the small forward position.



His lack of defense and hustle on the D end is really disturbing to me. Watching him watch his assignment make layup after layup and drain 3 after 3 really is getting to me.



Austin shouldn't be starting. Full stop. (Davis, Kaufusi and Aytes should be, depending on matchups), Neither should Fischer, honestly. Fischer could be a really good "points off the bench, sparkplug kind of guy." Our best lineup is (with backups):



Emery/KC/Chatman

Seljaas/Fischer/Chatman

KC/Chatman/

Aytes/Austin

Davis/Kaufusi/Austin



It's time to do the right thing and get your locker room back, Rose.

I'd probably have to agree. This team is living or dieing by the Fisher 3--which we all know as an offensive philosophy is problematic--especially if it's one guys 3's.

The D is a constant, pretty much. Sometimes lazy and sloppy and selfish. Which means BYU has to score points. And if the 3 ain't falling, Wes re in trouble against average to good teams.

Your alternate starting lineup is intriguing. Zach at the 2? Why not. He actually tries really hard on D and can't be worse than Fishers D or KCs. Emery's D is pretty solid--except for awhile in your OP I thought you wer describing Emery's fRequent dribble drive turnovers. But o think that could get reigned in.

And I'm not sure about Chapman's, but he has spurts and looks good and needs more PT.

Anywho, Hawk was right. This team does not look good. And it could look a lot better

I have to disagree with your assessment on a few things. I think KC plays pretty decent D. He also is a difficult matchup driving to the hoop and draws a lot of attention. He is one of the top assist guys in the WCC as well as steals. I hate when he tries to establish his jump shot or when he gets single minded/selfish with the ball, but he is not the sole problem with this team right now and making him the 4 instead of the point guard will not change the team.



I think our two biggest problems are our defense and our inability to get shooting open; either through dribble drive or screens. I'm amazed at the inability of out shooters to come of screens for open shots. Haws must have spoiled us, but our current shooters have got to be better.

I'm a broken record with this, but KC never should have played point. Leonard should have been his model. All his tripple doubles are meaningless if BYU does nothing in the post season and we're headed that way.



Fischer belongs on the bench. He's so inconsistent and one demensional that his value is minimal. I would rather Rose field some that will consistently get 8 points a game then someone that may or may not drop 20. Can't game plan around inconsistentcy.



We've yet to challenge Gonzaga for the WCC championship. We can barely keep up with SMC. As big a Rose fan as I am, I think we let his contract run its course. He's making basic lineup errors.



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I agree with you Gunk and I'm also a broken record as far as Fisher goes. If he is making his shots play him. Too often he doesn't make them and makes me think others should be on the floor. If he isn't making shots why leave him in the game for 30+ minutes. If he sits a while it doesn't mean he has to stay out the rest of the game. Maybe when he comes back in he'll start hitting.

I continue to ask why on earth does KC have to run point? For my own sanity's sake, please somebody make it stop. This is causing me to lose sleep.

I had to let my thoughts on the St. Mary's game stew for a while....



I think Rose might have lost it. Player for player I don't think St. Mary's was more talented. But they were certainly better coached and better disciplined. They had scouted KC and took away his best moves. They also ran Fischer off his best spots. I couldn't understand why Austin was left out there to dry after getting scored on over and over again. Either Aytes or Kaufusi should be strong enough to have a chance-- Austin had no chance.



It turned out that Fischer was strong enough to bull-doze his way to the hoop after they ran him off the 3 point line. We made out big runs behind Davis and Emery.



Maybe starting all the younger players will bring some wins, but I doubt it.



As for KC, it is time to take the ball out of his hands.



Rose needs find a way to get his Senior to play disciplined D that follows a good game plan.

I agree BYULV, except I think he should play the 3 instead of the 4. Anything that he does well he can do receiving the ball from the wing. In fact, I think that he would be a much better player from the wing instead of the top of the key.

I should be clear. I think that Rose is an elite coach, but it is true that he is making some basic lineup mistakes. I think part of the problem is that it is easy to just move around lineups from our standpoint where emotion doesn't come in to play, but there in the locker room there are emotions, people don't like getting benched and moved from positions that they want to play.



Rose might not have a choice if he wants the seniors to play nice with the team. But, you would hope that he has better control.



Honestly, Rose is an amazing coach, so it makes you wonder why some of these changes are hard to make. Part of it is that I don't think that you can bench a senior for a freshman and have a cohesive locker room. I don't envy him right now. The team just doesn't look good defensively. At all. Watching Kyle and Austin just let people by them for layups made me crack open a Dr. Pepper and wish that it was a little stronger :)

I disagree that Rose is an elite/amazing coach. I'd put him in the same bucket as Bronco. Good, but not great. Certainly not bad enough to fire. He's done some good things for BYU basketball, but he's hit a plateau. I wouldn't be sad if he left a la Bronco as long as we have someone to replace him with. Zero conference championships. Not a great tourney record. I say if we miss the Big Dance two years in a row (we made it last year so he's safe this year) he should be gone. We should be dominating the WCC!!

byufan4ever wrote:
I disagree that Rose is an elite/amazing coach. I'd put him in the same bucket as Bronco. Good, but not great. Certainly not bad enough to fire. He's done some good things for BYU basketball, but he's hit a plateau. I wouldn't be sad if he left a la Bronco as long as we have someone to replace him with. Zero conference championships. Not a great tourney record. I say if we miss the Big Dance two years in a row (we made it last year so he's safe this year) he should be gone. We should be dominating the WCC!!

Rose is a fantastic coach, in conversation of best BYU has probably ever had, but no not to the elite level. Elite coaches get to the Elite Eight.

hawkwing wrote:

I disagree that Rose is an elite/amazing coach. I'd put him in the same bucket as Bronco. Good, but not great. Certainly not bad enough to fire. He's done some good things for BYU basketball, but he's hit a plateau. I wouldn't be sad if he left a la Bronco as long as we have someone to replace him with. Zero conference championships. Not a great tourney record. I say if we miss the Big Dance two years in a row (we made it last year so he's safe this year) he should be gone. We should be dominating the WCC!!

Rose is a fantastic coach, in conversation of best BYU has probably ever had, but no not to the elite level. Elite coaches get to the Elite Eight.

Wait, weren't you the one who said with this SOS we shouldn't lose more than 3? It's going to be triple that if not more!

byufan4ever wrote:
I disagree that Rose is an elite/amazing coach. I'd put him in the same bucket as Bronco. Good, but not great. Certainly not bad enough to fire. He's done some good things for BYU basketball, but he's hit a plateau. I wouldn't be sad if he left a la Bronco as long as we have someone to replace him with. Zero conference championships. Not a great tourney record. I say if we miss the Big Dance two years in a row (we made it last year so he's safe this year) he should be gone. We should be dominating the WCC!!

Dominating the WCC? Hate to break the news to you, but Gonzaga kind of has a stranglehold on that already.

Wolverine wrote:

I disagree that Rose is an elite/amazing coach. I'd put him in the same bucket as Bronco. Good, but not great. Certainly not bad enough to fire. He's done some good things for BYU basketball, but he's hit a plateau. I wouldn't be sad if he left a la Bronco as long as we have someone to replace him with. Zero conference championships. Not a great tourney record. I say if we miss the Big Dance two years in a row (we made it last year so he's safe this year) he should be gone. We should be dominating the WCC!!

Dominating the WCC? Hate to break the news to you, but Gonzaga kind of has a stranglehold on that already.

Yeah, but we should be challenging them on that. Hate to break the news to you, but the WCC welcoming party is over. There are 7 teams that we should be beating by 20+ twice a year. We should be beating Saint Mary's 50-75% of the time. Only Gonzaga should be pushing us around. We should easily be the second best team in this league...and yet it feels like everyone is ok with being an average WCC team.

byufan4ever wrote:
I disagree that Rose is an elite/amazing coach. I'd put him in the same bucket as Bronco. Good, but not great. Certainly not bad enough to fire. He's done some good things for BYU basketball, but he's hit a plateau. I wouldn't be sad if he left a la Bronco as long as we have someone to replace him with. Zero conference championships. Not a great tourney record. I say if we miss the Big Dance two years in a row (we made it last year so he's safe this year) he should be gone. We should be dominating the WCC!!

I'm sorry. but in my opinion this is a ludicrous comment. BYU hasn't done as well as we want in the WCC, but what did you expect? We were just going to come in and sweep Gonzaga? They are a top 10 team annually. Note, that Rose did compete in the MWC with the recruits he got while he was there. I would argue that recruiting to the WCC is a very hard thing to do, and Rose has done a fantastic job building that back up since we moved there. For example, we don't miss out on guys like Jared Loveridge for sure, or possibly guys like Parker and Jackson if we are still in the MWC.

'

For a little perspective... The season before Dave Rose took over BYU went 9-25. Let's keep in mind that BYU played in the MWC for years under Rose, and that the MWC was a three bid league, and could have been four most years. Rose has had two of his assistants lured away as head coaches, which is a hard thing to replace. Bronco hasn't ever had ANY of his assistants hired away from him. He has zero branches on his coaching tree.

Rose calmly led the Cougars to 20 wins and a trip to the NIT where the Cougars lost to Rose’s old team the Houston Cougars 77-67 to end the first season under the new head coach.



Since that time, Rose had led BYU to 257 wins against just 88 losses for a BYU record of .745 winning percentage. He ranks ahead of such coaches as Rick Pitino, Jim Boeheim, Bruce Pearl, Sean Miller, and Jamie Dixon. He was the 15th fastest in NCAA history to reach 200 wins as he achieved that in his 259th game.



He had led BYU to 10-consecutive 20-win seasons and is in a tie for the seventh longest current streak in that category. He led BYU to six-consecutive 25-win seasons from 2007-2012 and seven overall.





The Cougars have made eight trips to the NCAA tournament including a run to the Sweet 16 in 2010-11 where they lost to Florida in overtime. He also led the Cougars to a run to the NIT Final Four at Madison Square Garden in 2012-13 where they lost to Baylor 76-70.



http://lawlessrepublic.com/2015/06/28/byu-basketball-is-dave-rose-an-elite-coach/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I mean, there are other statistics out there, but comparing Rose to Bronco is just silly. If Rose isn't "elite" according to your standards, then that is fine... but to say something as simple as "if he doesn't make the dance two years in a row he should be fired" is just a silly thing to say and it shows off a lack of basketball knowledge. The NCAA tournament is hard to get into.

hawkwing wrote:

I disagree that Rose is an elite/amazing coach. I'd put him in the same bucket as Bronco. Good, but not great. Certainly not bad enough to fire. He's done some good things for BYU basketball, but he's hit a plateau. I wouldn't be sad if he left a la Bronco as long as we have someone to replace him with. Zero conference championships. Not a great tourney record. I say if we miss the Big Dance two years in a row (we made it last year so he's safe this year) he should be gone. We should be dominating the WCC!!

Rose is a fantastic coach, in conversation of best BYU has probably ever had, but no not to the elite level. Elite coaches get to the Elite Eight.

If Brandon Davies didn't get two girls pregnant (on top of prior significant injuries to big men) and kicked off the team we would have been to AT LEAST that Jimmer's Senior year. I mean, we were playing Charles Abuou at power forward, for Crying out loud.

Brayden Green wrote:
If Brandon Davies didn't get two girls pregnant (on top of prior significant injuries to big men) and kicked off the team we would have been to AT LEAST that Jimmer's Senior year. I mean, we were playing Charles Abuou at power forward, for Crying out loud.

I will forever be bitter about this. Probably our best chance ever at a final four. Surely, Davies wouldn't been good for one more point in that Florida loss (which went to overtime), and then from the elite 8 on, I remember all those teams just playing terribly. Anything could've happened

Ok, so even with this elite coach, I need to lower my standards to not winning conference titles and only reaching the tourney about every other year? And let's pray we get another Jimmer just so we have a shot at another Sweet Sixteen.



Rose is not a horrible coach. He is definitely better than what we had before. But he is not a great coach. Would a power conference school be willing to snap him up since he's so elite?



I'm not saying the time is now, but at some point change is simply good and needed. Rose was great at getting us from level 1 to level 2 but MAYBE to get to the next level change is needed. Maybe a change in conference if the WCC really is hurting recruiting that bad. If my work has taught me anything it's that only the last two years matter. The world is a what have you done for me lately place. Rose's team is clearly underperforming this season with what has been a rather easy schedule so far.

hawkwing wrote:

I disagree that Rose is an elite/amazing coach. I'd put him in the same bucket as Bronco. Good, but not great. Certainly not bad enough to fire. He's done some good things for BYU basketball, but he's hit a plateau. I wouldn't be sad if he left a la Bronco as long as we have someone to replace him with. Zero conference championships. Not a great tourney record. I say if we miss the Big Dance two years in a row (we made it last year so he's safe this year) he should be gone. We should be dominating the WCC!!

Rose is a fantastic coach, in conversation of best BYU has probably ever had, but no not to the elite level. Elite coaches get to the Elite Eight.

Nah, there's only one coach in that conversation, and it's Stan Watts.

byufan4ever wrote:

byufan4ever wrote:
I disagree that Rose is an elite/amazing coach. I'd put him in the same bucket as Bronco. Good, but not great. Certainly not bad enough to fire. He's done some good things for BYU basketball, but he's hit a plateau. I wouldn't be sad if he left a la Bronco as long as we have someone to replace him with. Zero conference championships. Not a great tourney record. I say if we miss the Big Dance two years in a row (we made it last year so he's safe this year) he should be gone. We should be dominating the WCC!!

Dominating the WCC? Hate to break the news to you, but Gonzaga kind of has a stranglehold on that already.

Yeah, but we should be challenging them on that. Hate to break the news to you, but the WCC welcoming party is over. There are 7 teams that we should be beating by 20+ twice a year. We should be beating Saint Mary's 50-75% of the time. Only Gonzaga should be pushing us around. We should easily be the second best team in this league...and yet it feels like everyone is ok with being an average WCC team.

On paper Gonzaga should have blown out Santa Clara and USF last week but barely survived both of those games. The WCC is just a weird league where the weaker teams rountinely beat the better ones or give them way more trouble than you would think they should.