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Question to the Longtime Fans

by Mars · 12/29/2009

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M
Mars


At this point halfway through the season, I haven't seen a better BYU men's basketball team personally. Have you?
B
BoiseBYU
Good question! I think the Ainge-Roberts-Kite team that went to the elite eight has got to be right there at the top. First of all, there has not been a greater BYU player than Ainge--he scored in double figures in, what 100+ straight games? I could be way off on that stat, but I am not off in how much he owned the game...We crushed UCLA in the second round of the tournament and then AInge did the shot to beat number 3 Notre Dame...well this is a team for the records. As it turned out, Kite, Ainge, and Roberts all played in the NBA....Maybe by the end of this season we will see how today's team stacks up....I think the present team is deeper and Jimmer makes me think of Ainge....but first let me see a season of taking over games and simply dominating the flow before I rank them with that team....
S
SpiffCoug
The 1987, IIRC, started 17-0 and ranked #3. The top two teams lost that week and BYU was making a trip UAB. They got killed and the season was down hill from there. They finished 9-6 down the stretch and bowed out in the 2nd round to Louisville by 21.
M
Mars
BoiseBYU wrote:
Good question! I think the Ainge-Roberts-Kite team that went to the elite eight has got to be right there at the top. First of all, there has not been a greater BYU player than Ainge--he scored in double figures in, what 100+ straight games? I could be way off on that stat, but I am not off in how much he owned the game...We crushed UCLA in the second round of the tournament and then AInge did the shot to beat number 3 Notre Dame...well this is a team for the records. As it turned out, Kite, Ainge, and Roberts all played in the NBA....Maybe by the end of this season we will see how today's team stacks up....I think the present team is deeper and Jimmer makes me think of Ainge....but first let me see a season of taking over games and simply dominating the flow before I rank them with that team....

Did you get to watch the team under Ainge? I don't date back nearly that far myself.
B
BoiseBYU
Mars wrote:
Good question! I think the Ainge-Roberts-Kite team that went to the elite eight has got to be right there at the top. First of all, there has not been a greater BYU player than Ainge--he scored in double figures in, what 100+ straight games? I could be way off on that stat, but I am not off in how much he owned the game...We crushed UCLA in the second round of the tournament and then AInge did the shot to beat number 3 Notre Dame...well this is a team for the records. As it turned out, Kite, Ainge, and Roberts all played in the NBA....Maybe by the end of this season we will see how today's team stacks up....I think the present team is deeper and Jimmer makes me think of Ainge....but first let me see a season of taking over games and simply dominating the flow before I rank them with that team....

Did you get to watch the team under Ainge? I don't date back nearly that far myself.


I did. He was more than just really good. He took over games and he was consistent--consistently good. But he had really good back up too--Roberts could score and Kite, while never confusing anyone as a scorer, was a force in the middle...something the present team I fear lacks....Kite did not get moved
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C
craigoscarson
87-88



Michael Smith 1st team All america

Jeff Chatman

Andy Toolson

Marty Haws

Jim Usevitch

Gary Trost

Brian Taylor

Russell Larson

etc.etc.



That team was as high as #3 in the country and could have made the final 8 if they hadn't run into Wooden award winner Pervis Ellison and Labradford Smith of Louisville in the 2nd round.



This BYU team doesn't hold a candle to that team. Until this team beats a few ranked teams, a conference tourney and a NCAA tourney game, all they've done is play a pretty weak schedule.

I like this team a lot, especially the depth of the bench (if there's anything historical about this team, it's the depth) but they're not even in the top 5 teams ever until they win a tourney game.

You can't discuss this years team without discussing how awful our noncon schedule has been so far. Even with last nights win, we're not in the top 40 of the RPI.
E
EM_Puma
I arrived here in Utah in 2001 and they are the best team I've seen. They are just so deep and if Jimmer can drive and pass out to Emery or Haws and they continue to be as hot as they've been, it will be hard to stop this team offensively.



Defensively we could use some slight improvement where we don't allow teams to score 104 points on us and we don't always rack up as many fouls guarding teams that drive on us.



It's hard to say though if they are better than Danny Ainge's last team where three of the starters were drafted and had long productive careers of 10 plus years in the NBA. I don't know for sure if we have that yet, but we are definitely working on that scenario.



I love the Arizona fan's evaluation of the Cougars last night because it might be a bit of sour grapes, but it also brings us back to earth before we get too big of a head:



Where'dDaHomeCourtAdvantageGo?!

December 29th, 2009 on 12:15 am

Steve, in all honesty what I saw tonight in McKale was a bunch of average kids on the other side, Fredette especially, with the smarts to take full advantage of a team – no, a group of misguided guys make that - with no direction, no leadership, no basketball sense, no will, no desire, no clue. The ‘Cats vintage ‘09, and I’m talking about the sophomores, juniors and senior in particular here, are the sloppiest, slowest, laziest, don’t-give-a-damn group I’ve ever seen. And I started seeing ‘Cat teams in the days of Larsen, when my family and I had to step outside of Bear Down to sip our Pepsi at halftime. C’mon, BYU is good, but they’re not that good. Just because the ‘Cats can’t hit wide open 3s doesn’t mean this team from Provo shouldn’t be able to either. And how much defense does a team have to pay to shut down this team of ‘Cats, really? Rebounding and defending are lost art forms amongst these guys with ARIZONA across their chest but no get up and go in their sneakers. It’s really sad to see and it’s old already. But oh well…it’s what’s on.
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clemdiggitydog1
i actually tried out for the freshmen's BB team at BYU in 1973,eventually getting cut.Mark Handy and Jay Cheesman were on that team.Danny"s older brother Doug was then on the freshmen team as freshmen were not eligible to play varsity at that time.he was very good ,a little taller than Dan but not the overall athlete.many people forget what and outstanding FB and baseball player Dan was.i have a picture of Dan in front of the dugout at then Royal"s stadium,holding my then 2 year old daughter, an dJoe Garagiola is in the background holding a migrophone as he was interviewing Ainge for the NBC game of the week.Ainge of course was playing for the Bluejays and was a frequent attender of our Elder's quorum meetings when he was in town to play the Royalsat the KC 1st ward building on Holmes.we were living in KC while we attended medical school and did our residency.anywho,as we graduated from the Y in 1981 we saw the Ainge glory years with BOO Roberts,[a poor man's Dave Meyers]Kite,Steve Trumbo[who dreopped out of my chemistry 101 class after 1 week],and Steve Craig,who of course was once married to Marie Osmond.that was obviously one of the more storied BYU teams.i think that AInge was a bit better overall player but Jimmer is very close and perhaps a better pure scorer.i'm starting to see similarities in the way this team has a lot of weapons and can go into an opponents arena,with that swagger.Also even though Dan was a great player, there were nights when he just barely kept his double digit scoring streak alive.these were halcyon times to be a cougar fan,sorta like today.arguably they had a little better inside game on that team,Roberts enjoyed a nice career in the NBA of course,and Kite played for the Cs for what 13-14 years?i think this up tempo iteration of the cougs may be better from outside,so there's a push.got to go deep in the tournament however to really be able to compare them .any other oldetimers out there agree?sorry ,not brief.
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Metal Bubba
Growing up in NC in the 80s, it was hard to keep up with the Cougs except through box scores in the daily paper. So I only really know BYU basketball since 1991 when I was freshman at the Y. BUT the best team I've seen since 1991 is the team that had Wesley, Whiting, Lyday and Hansen on it. I believe that was 2000 or 2001? They really let me down against Cincy in the 1st round.
S
SpiffCoug
So basically this could be the best team in the last 10 years and possibly 20?!
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S
Schmoe
Well, when I was back at BYA, we won our first Rocky Mountain Athletic Conference championship. Things were a little different back then, but we were a good team! The year was 1916.
K
KYCoug
Mars wrote:
Did you get to watch the team under Ainge? I don't date back nearly that far myself. [/color]


I was there when Ainge played and also the year before. I'll never forget the Law brothers at guard were usually the 3rd and 4th players back on fast breaks with the other team 1 and 2. Ainge was special though, from the day he arrived he owned the team and was able to exert his will on the outcome. They still got beat from time to time but he was everywhere, every play. There have been only a few at the collegiate level I've seen that could carry a team that way. Larry Bird comes to mind.



Jimmer is real good, don't know if I'd put him quite on Danny's level, but he is real good.



Go Cougs!



L Hatton

Louisville KY
B
bigbluepuma
The Ainge, Roberts Kite team certainly has to be in the running for the best. The Kressimer Cosic led teams of the early 70's were certainly great fun to watch, but my vote for the best BYU team is the mid 60's team with Dick Namelka, Jeff Congdon and crew. They won the NIT when it was the big deal. They were a great team to watch. I happened upon the first game of the NIT on TV by accident, and after watching it, watched the rest. From that day forward, I have been a died in Scottish wool true blue BYU fanatic.
M
Mars
craigoscarson wrote:
You can't discuss this years team without discussing how awful our noncon schedule has been so far. Even with last nights win, we're not in the top 40 of the RPI.

BYU's Jerry Palm RPI is up to 41 today. The Cougars are in a stretch of four straight games against RPI Top 100 opponents, and BYU is 3-0, with UNLV up next. BYU is 6th in the Ken Pomeroy ratings--up from 10th just yesterday. BYU is 13th in the Jeff Sagarin ratings. http://www.ksl.com/?nid=498&sid=9168740
M
Mars
KYCoug wrote:
Jimmer is real good, don't know if I'd put him quite on Danny's level, but he is real good.

Sometimes it's hard for me to remember that Fredette isn't even playing at a Senior level yet!...
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K
KYCoug
Mars wrote:
Jimmer is real good, don't know if I'd put him quite on Danny's level, but he is real good.

Sometimes it's hard for me to remember that Fredette isn't even playing at a Senior level yet!...


Believe me, nothing would thrill me more than to see Jimmer this year and as a Senior, change my mind about who is better!!! Games like AZ definitely make me excited about the future, hope he keeps his touch!



Go Cougs!



L Hatton

Louisville KY
C
Conosticator
Right now I'd put this team behind the Ainge, Kite, Roberts, team. Also, behind the Michael Smith, Chatman, Toolson, team. Also behind the Cosic, Fryer, Tollestrup team.



As far as best player ever at BYU I rank Cosic ahead of Ainge. I've always wondered what Cosic could have done if he had chosen to play in the NBA (drafted by the Trailblazers), instead of returning back to Yugoslavia.



Here is an excerpt from one of his games while at BYU: "Against Kansas State, however, BYU was in trouble until Cosic went to work. With his team leading by only 46-45 with five minutes gone in the second half, Cosic banked one in off the glass from a sharp angle. After a turnover, he took a pass at the top of the circle while facing 6'3" Jack Thomas in a mismatch. Cosic cradled the ball, swooped it over the head of Thomas and behind his own head in one motion. While the bewildered Thomas looked for the ball, Cosic dribbled around him and through two other men for an astonishing basket. Moments later he took a defensive rebound, went behind his back on the dribble at midcourt and fired perfectly to Fryer for a layup. Next he threw a jumping 25-foot hook pass to Phil Tollestrup for another layup. BYU led by nine, and the Marriott was jumping, too. Cosic laughed all the way to the bench."



Not bad moves for a 6' 11" center. Many a game he led the team in both scoring and assists.
S
snoscythe
Conosticator wrote:
As far as best player ever at BYU I rank Cosic ahead of Ainge. I've always wondered what Cosic could have done if he had chosen to play in the NBA (drafted by the Trailblazers), instead of returning back to Yugoslavia.


Not just drafted by the Blazers (72), but the Lakers (73), the Carolina Cougars (73), and the Celtics (76). He was so good that teams kept drafting him for five years in hopes of luring him back, but he was all Yugo all the way. How many players do you know that can claim to have been drafted four times, including offers by both the Lakers and the Celtics?



The man is still idolized in the former Yugoslavia. I saw a vendor selling "greatest games" videos of him while I was in Slovenia, and I saw Kreso jerseys on kids on the playground in Beograd. It's crazy that kids 30 years later know the legend. How many kids in America wear Wilt Chamberlain jerseys?
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craigoscarson
Mars wrote:
You can't discuss this years team without discussing how awful our noncon schedule has been so far. Even with last nights win, we're not in the top 40 of the RPI.

BYU's Jerry Palm RPI is up to 41 today. The Cougars are in a stretch of four straight games against RPI Top 100 opponents, and BYU is 3-0, with UNLV up next. BYU is 6th in the Ken Pomeroy ratings--up from 10th just yesterday. BYU is 13th in the Jeff Sagarin ratings. http://www.ksl.com/?nid=498&sid=9168740




Our strength of schedule (after arizona) is 213 with only Utep left in our D1 noncon... this is something that will come into play when we're seeded .

Thankfully we've been blowing them out and playing on the road which helps with our terrible SOS.



KenPom, Sagarin, etc. etc. don't have nearly as much influence with selection than the RPI.



Our conference has fared relatively well in the non-con and if TCU and Utah had even won half their close games, we'd be ahead of the Big 10 and Pac 10.

http://www.realtimerpi.com/rpi_conf_Men.html
M
Mars
craigoscarson wrote:
Our strength of schedule (after arizona) is 213 with only Utep left in our D1 noncon... this is something that will come into play when we're seeded .

Teams I give us a "Pass" on scheduling:

Hawaii - RPI 210. Major down year for a normally decent team.

San Francisco - RPI 225. SOMEONE had to play us in Salt Lake City.

Fresno State - RPI 203. Steve Cleve.

Wagner - RPI 343. Given us by the Las Vegas Tourny.

Eastern Washington - RPI 286. Ditto.

South-central New Mexico A&M - Div. II team. Doesn't count against us in the RPI.



Teams we blew it on:

Idaho State - RPI 220. Proven RPI killer.

Southern U - RPI 319. Just terrible. Not worth the win.



http://www.realtimerpi.com/rpi_305_Men.html
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