4-3 vs. 3-4

I've seen this pop up in enough places, so I figured it may deserve its own thread (sorry if there is already a thread I missed).



On the show After Further Review, the analysts discussed the 4-3 vs. the 3-4 defense. One really interesting comment that was made is that most of the stud defensive linemen coming out of high school have dreams of being star defensive ends, maybe even in the NFL. It becomes hard to recruit those types to a 3-4 defense because they don't feel like it matches with who they want to be (just look at how we ended up misusing Bronson last year). However in a 4-3 it's much easier to land those recruits and eventually you can move some of those guys inside to defensive tackle.



The comments made me much more open to the 4-3. We should still be able to land great linebacker recruits and we may be able to consistently get the best lineman recruits out there that would fit with BYU's culture. The first year transitioning may be a little rough, so that's more of what would make me hesitant to switch in light of next year's schedule.



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With the amount of DLs we have on the team, we'll need to probably play the 3-4 most of next year.

If he can recruit the right guys, Sitake can run whatever defense he wants; every defense has it's advantages and disadvantages (I think I'd try to play to the strength of the players I can get and what my DC knows best).

Schmoe wrote:
If he can recruit the right guys, Sitake can run whatever defense he wants; every defense has it's advantages and disadvantages (I think I'd try to play to the strength of the players I can get and what my DC knows best).

Correct. And I think BYU can recruit D-Lineman--that is not my long-term concern (short-term, it is a concern given the combined reality of the roster and the 2016 schedule). The 4-3 puts more pressure on your secondary in the passing game since you take away one linebacker who can be used in pass coverage and replace him with a lineman. Bronco switched from his 3-3-5 because he felt BYU could not recruit enough of the right type of players in the secondary to support that scheme, and instead moved to the linebacker centric 3-4.



I'm not concerned (at least long-term) with Sitake and Tuiaki getting us D-linemen eventually. I'm concerned about whether we can recruit the DBs who can take the pressure that comes as the back stop to a 4-3 package. Guys like Micah Hanneman aren't going to work at that point.

Jarhead wrote:
I've seen this pop up in enough places, so I figured it may deserve its own thread (sorry if there is already a thread I missed).



On the show After Further Review, the analysts discussed the 4-3 vs. the 3-4 defense. One really interesting comment that was made is that most of the stud defensive linemen coming out of high school have dreams of being star defensive ends, maybe even in the NFL. It becomes hard to recruit those types to a 3-4 defense because they don't feel like it matches with who they want to be (just look at how we ended up misusing Bronson last year). However in a 4-3 it's much easier to land those recruits and eventually you can move some of those guys inside to defensive tackle.



The comments made me much more open to the 4-3. We should still be able to land great linebacker recruits and we may be able to consistently get the best lineman recruits out there that would fit with BYU's culture. The first year transitioning may be a little rough, so that's more of what would make me hesitant to switch in light of next year's schedule.



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I saw this as well and thought it was a interesting thought.



I thought Fowler derailed the comment that was made just before he started talking about defensive line recruits. I was thinking the conversation flow was BYU used to have the big nasty boys on the oline back in the 89-90's and it should get back that way with KS's recruiting the big nasty poly's to the oline, and that will be one of the bigger keys of success for BYU moving forward.

snoscythe wrote:

If he can recruit the right guys, Sitake can run whatever defense he wants; every defense has it's advantages and disadvantages (I think I'd try to play to the strength of the players I can get and what my DC knows best).

Correct. And I think BYU can recruit D-Lineman--that is not my long-term concern (short-term, it is a concern given the combined reality of the roster and the 2016 schedule). The 4-3 puts more pressure on your secondary in the passing game since you take away one linebacker who can be used in pass coverage and replace him with a lineman. Bronco switched from his 3-3-5 because he felt BYU could not recruit enough of the right type of players in the secondary to support that scheme, and instead moved to the linebacker centric 3-4.



I'm not concerned (at least long-term) with Sitake and Tuiaki getting us D-linemen eventually. I'm concerned about whether we can recruit the DBs who can take the pressure that comes as the back stop to a 4-3 package. Guys like Micah Hanneman aren't going to work at that point.

You are joking right... You understand Micah is a True Sophomore that just got off a mission. BYU has some of the most talented DB's they have ever had. And it was not that long ago that BYU moved away from the 4-3 (early 2000's). Currently, at least right now (after the Handsome signing) is set up really well to play the 4-3. Who are the DL that were not seniors:

Coming school year and career stats

Sr- Travis Tuiloma 6' 2" 300: 64 tackles, 10.0 TFL (-39 yards), 2.5 sacks (-17 yards), 4 QBH, 1 PBU, 1 Blk

Jr- Tomasi Laulile 6' 4" 280: 34 tackles, 7.0 TFL (-23 yards), 3.0 sacks (-16 yards), 1 Int, 4 QBH, 2 FR (37 yards/TD)

Jr- Kesni Tausinga 6' 1" 302: 9 tackles, 2.5 TFL (-9 yards), 0.5 sacks (-5 yards), 1 PBU

So- Tevita Mo'Unga 6' 3" 340: 5 tackles

So- Moses Kaumatule 6' 2" 245: 2 tackles, 0.5 TFL (-1 yard)



So three of the five are big inside DT type of players (Tuiloma, Tausinga, & Mo'Unga), the other two are pass rush specialist (Laulile & Kaumatule), which are much more suited to play in a 4-3 DE position. Add in Handsome Tanielu 6' 2" 300 and after next year Motekiai Langi 6' 8" 410 BYU should be very solid in the middle two for year to come. And if needed BYU can always bring Jaterrius Gulley 6' 2" 340 back over to the D side of the ball if they need to. As for DE, it's been reported that Troy Hinds 6' 5" 235 is moving to DE since have hip surgery this Fall, because it has/will limit his hip movement needed for pass coverage. Also Sione Takitaki 6' 2" 240 (if able to come back) played a lot of DE in High School and would fit right in at DE in a 4-3. Tyler Cook 6' 3" 220 played a lot of DE in High School, but IMO would need to be at least 235 to be effective in a 4-3. Then last I knew Isaiah Nacua 6' 2" 255 DE (Kai's younger brother) is heading back to BYU next month, who would add more depth to the DE positions. So the DL should be fine...

BYU also returns 3 starting LBer's in Warner, Langi, and Tautu (both OLB and the MLB). Not really a lot of depth behind them, Sione has the most and he would make a great DE, rather than a pass rush specialist LB (not the best cover skills as a LBer).





8)

E-Zone15 wrote:

Schmoe wrote:
If he can recruit the right guys, Sitake can run whatever defense he wants; every defense has it's advantages and disadvantages (I think I'd try to play to the strength of the players I can get and what my DC knows best).

Correct. And I think BYU can recruit D-Lineman--that is not my long-term concern (short-term, it is a concern given the combined reality of the roster and the 2016 schedule). The 4-3 puts more pressure on your secondary in the passing game since you take away one linebacker who can be used in pass coverage and replace him with a lineman. Bronco switched from his 3-3-5 because he felt BYU could not recruit enough of the right type of players in the secondary to support that scheme, and instead moved to the linebacker centric 3-4.



I'm not concerned (at least long-term) with Sitake and Tuiaki getting us D-linemen eventually. I'm concerned about whether we can recruit the DBs who can take the pressure that comes as the back stop to a 4-3 package. Guys like Micah Hanneman aren't going to work at that point.

You are joking right... You understand Micah is a True Sophomore that just got off a mission. BYU has some of the most talented DB's they have ever had. And it was not that long ago that BYU moved away from the 4-3 (early 2000's). Currently, at least right now (after the Handsome signing) is set up really well to play the 4-3. Who are the DL that were not seniors:

Coming school year and career stats

Sr- Travis Tuiloma 6' 2" 300: 64 tackles, 10.0 TFL (-39 yards), 2.5 sacks (-17 yards), 4 QBH, 1 PBU, 1 Blk

Jr- Tomasi Laulile 6' 4" 280: 34 tackles, 7.0 TFL (-23 yards), 3.0 sacks (-16 yards), 1 Int, 4 QBH, 2 FR (37 yards/TD)

Jr- Kesni Tausinga 6' 1" 302: 9 tackles, 2.5 TFL (-9 yards), 0.5 sacks (-5 yards), 1 PBU

So- Tevita Mo'Unga 6' 3" 340: 5 tackles

So- Moses Kaumatule 6' 2" 245: 2 tackles, 0.5 TFL (-1 yard)



So three of the five are big inside DT type of players (Tuiloma, Tausinga, & Mo'Unga), the other two are pass rush specialist (Laulile & Kaumatule), which are much more suited to play in a 4-3 DE position. Add in Handsome Tanielu 6' 2" 300 and after next year Motekiai Langi 6' 8" 410 BYU should be very solid in the middle two for year to come. And if needed BYU can always bring Jaterrius Gulley 6' 2" 340 back over to the D side of the ball if they need to. As for DE, it's been reported that Troy Hinds 6' 5" 235 is moving to DE since have hip surgery this Fall, because it has/will limit his hip movement needed for pass coverage. Also Sione Takitaki 6' 2" 240 (if able to come back) played a lot of DE in High School and would fit right in at DE in a 4-3. Tyler Cook 6' 3" 220 played a lot of DE in High School, but IMO would need to be at least 235 to be effective in a 4-3. Then last I knew Isaiah Nacua 6' 2" 255 DE (Kai's younger brother) is heading back to BYU next month, who would add more depth to the DE positions. So the DL should be fine...

BYU also returns 3 starting LBer's in Warner, Langi, and Tautu (both OLB and the MLB). Not really a lot of depth behind them, Sione has the most and he would make a great DE, rather than a pass rush specialist LB (not the best cover skills as a LBer).





8)

I'm definitely no expert on the defensive line, but 220-235 pounds seem like awfully light linemen.

Have always felt the 3-4 was too much of a vulnerability against the run to be an effective overall defense.



Agree, though, with the comment that DEs and DTs need to weigh substantially more than linebackers or they'll just get pushed aside.

BYULV wrote:

I'm definitely no expert on the defensive line, but 220-235 pounds seem like awfully light linemen.

It is a bit on the small side, the average is 253. But keep in mind that guys can put on a few lbs pretty easily if they've got the frame for it and that many D-ends are more speed guys, especially the guys you'll use on obvious passing downs.

hamaca wrote:
Have always felt the 3-4 was too much of a vulnerability against the run to be an effective overall defense.



Agree, though, with the comment that DEs and DTs need to weigh substantially more than linebackers or they'll just get pushed aside.

The 3-4 is actually a better run defense because of its speed and versatility. The 4-3 is a better pass rushing defense. Either can do both as long as they are well coached, I'm not sold on our current coaches ability to do that since the named Dcoordinator has never been one before.

BYULV wrote:

snoscythe wrote:

If he can recruit the right guys, Sitake can run whatever defense he wants; every defense has it's advantages and disadvantages (I think I'd try to play to the strength of the players I can get and what my DC knows best).

Correct. And I think BYU can recruit D-Lineman--that is not my long-term concern (short-term, it is a concern given the combined reality of the roster and the 2016 schedule). The 4-3 puts more pressure on your secondary in the passing game since you take away one linebacker who can be used in pass coverage and replace him with a lineman. Bronco switched from his 3-3-5 because he felt BYU could not recruit enough of the right type of players in the secondary to support that scheme, and instead moved to the linebacker centric 3-4.



I'm not concerned (at least long-term) with Sitake and Tuiaki getting us D-linemen eventually. I'm concerned about whether we can recruit the DBs who can take the pressure that comes as the back stop to a 4-3 package. Guys like Micah Hanneman aren't going to work at that point.

You are joking right... You understand Micah is a True Sophomore that just got off a mission. BYU has some of the most talented DB's they have ever had. And it was not that long ago that BYU moved away from the 4-3 (early 2000's). Currently, at least right now (after the Handsome signing) is set up really well to play the 4-3. Who are the DL that were not seniors:

Coming school year and career stats

Sr- Travis Tuiloma 6' 2" 300: 64 tackles, 10.0 TFL (-39 yards), 2.5 sacks (-17 yards), 4 QBH, 1 PBU, 1 Blk

Jr- Tomasi Laulile 6' 4" 280: 34 tackles, 7.0 TFL (-23 yards), 3.0 sacks (-16 yards), 1 Int, 4 QBH, 2 FR (37 yards/TD)

Jr- Kesni Tausinga 6' 1" 302: 9 tackles, 2.5 TFL (-9 yards), 0.5 sacks (-5 yards), 1 PBU

So- Tevita Mo'Unga 6' 3" 340: 5 tackles

So- Moses Kaumatule 6' 2" 245: 2 tackles, 0.5 TFL (-1 yard)



So three of the five are big inside DT type of players (Tuiloma, Tausinga, & Mo'Unga), the other two are pass rush specialist (Laulile & Kaumatule), which are much more suited to play in a 4-3 DE position. Add in Handsome Tanielu 6' 2" 300 and after next year Motekiai Langi 6' 8" 410 BYU should be very solid in the middle two for year to come. And if needed BYU can always bring Jaterrius Gulley 6' 2" 340 back over to the D side of the ball if they need to. As for DE, it's been reported that Troy Hinds 6' 5" 235 is moving to DE since have hip surgery this Fall, because it has/will limit his hip movement needed for pass coverage. Also Sione Takitaki 6' 2" 240 (if able to come back) played a lot of DE in High School and would fit right in at DE in a 4-3. Tyler Cook 6' 3" 220 played a lot of DE in High School, but IMO would need to be at least 235 to be effective in a 4-3. Then last I knew Isaiah Nacua 6' 2" 255 DE (Kai's younger brother) is heading back to BYU next month, who would add more depth to the DE positions. So the DL should be fine...

BYU also returns 3 starting LBer's in Warner, Langi, and Tautu (both OLB and the MLB). Not really a lot of depth behind them, Sione has the most and he would make a great DE, rather than a pass rush specialist LB (not the best cover skills as a LBer).





8)

I'm definitely no expert on the defensive line, but 220-235 pounds seem like awfully light linemen.

Normally about 235 is the starting weight for a 4-3 DE in the D1 level at college, but every once in a great while you will find DE under 235. In a 3-4 you normally want the DE around 250 or more, and the NT in the 280 to 300 plus range. BYU was lucky to have a big front 3, with starters DE- 6' 8" 280, DT (TE side)- 6' 2" 293, and NT- 6' 2" 300.

Remember back a few years ago when BYU played @Virginia, Eli Harold ate BYU up. He had 11 tackles, 2.0 sacks, 3.5 TFL (-17 yards), and a forced fumble, he was listed as a 6' 4" 235 DE for them. He gained around 10 pounds (247) to play in the NFL for the 49er's. But in college he used his quickness (4.6 40) to create mismatches against much bigger and slower OLmen. In High School Troy Hinds ran 11's in the 100m and was 4.5 40 player, you get him at 240 or 245 he could really cause all kinds of mismatches for slower OLmen. Think Paul Kruger only a lot faster, Paul got a lot bigger in the NFL 6' 4" 270 than what he played at Utah at (250 range), Paul was QB in High School and wanted play QB, BYU was honest with him and told him he would be a great DE. Utah told him they would give him a shot at QB, which ended up being all of one day before they switch him to DE. He ended up having 2 younger brothers follow him to the U, after that.

TCU has often took LBers and RB and switched them to DE and DEs they will turn them into DT. It's all about have a lots of speed in their front 7.





:angry: