No Dancing in '16...Thanks Rose

This team is very jackal and Hyde. IMO, you have two Seniors that are running the team into the ground as much as they are helping it. KC has always had an ego and it appears to be ruinning the team. But the root cause of the team's woes is Rose.



1) KC is NOT a PG. Rose is too fascinated with KC at point and it's ruining the team. Emery should be starting at point with chatman or another actual guard backing up Emery. KC is a 3. The irony here is KC is actually ruining his chances at playing professionally by insisting to play PG. No team will play him as a guard (too slow, average handles). He can't shoot so he's not a 2. Meanwhile he's forcing things and Rose keeps letting him.



2) No identity. Rose has grabbed a bunch of talented players but hasn't put together any sort of identity or system. He seems to be letting things "play out" in hopes an identity boils to the surface. This allows seniors with personal agendas - KC and Fischer - dictate things.



3) No grooming. Because there is no identity or system, future players aren't groomed. Good teams follow a plan, plug in this type of player into this role. There is no plan. Now, I get that may have to do with Rose being faced with limited recruiting pool, grabbing the best players he can and making the best with what he's got, but players with talent are wasting away on the bench with no clear path to the court. Meanwhile, a player like Calvert - who is more of a natural PG - has to watch the train wreck knowing full well they could do a better job. Has to be very frustrating.



In short, the team appears to have gotten away from Rose. We go dancing this year only if we win the WCC tourney, which likely won't happen but at east there is a chance, which more than football ever has.



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I was imagining the other day just how bad this team would have been if they didn't take that Europe trip to figure things out and gel...

snoscythe wrote:
I was imagining the other day just how bad this team would have been if they didn't take that Europe trip to figure things out and gel...

You mean the trip where they basically went and played high school teams. That trip was a waste. We weren't challenged and as a result the players figured they could play that way and get away with it.



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Not much of a team right now. A bunch of individuals (especially our guards) trying to do things on their own or "get mine."

Gunk wrote:



2) No identity. Rose has grabbed a bunch of talented players but hasn't put together any sort of identity or system. He seems to be letting things "play out" in hopes an identity boils to the surface. This allows seniors with personal agendas - KC and Fischer - dictate things.

I'm not sure that I'm following this, can you develop this thought a bit more? What talent is Rose not correctly implementing? Our Bigs are limited. Kafusi is developing, but too raw to be more of a focus than he is, Austin's talent is for being big and fouling 25 feet away from the basket, All other "talents" are either being appropriately used (I.e. KC's triple doubles) or, not as well rounded as we'd like (Fisher's threes, and that's about it)



I may just be seeing it different than you though, so develop this out more, I'd like to share your perspective on this.

ABYUFAN wrote:

2) No identity. Rose has grabbed a bunch of talented players but hasn't put together any sort of identity or system. He seems to be letting things "play out" in hopes an identity boils to the surface. This allows seniors with personal agendas - KC and Fischer - dictate things.

I'm not sure that I'm following this, can you develop this thought a bit more? What talent is Rose not correctly implementing? Our Bigs are limited. Kafusi is developing, but too raw to be more of a focus than he is, Austin's talent is for being big and fouling 25 feet away from the basket, All other "talents" are either being appropriately used (I.e. KC's triple doubles) or, not as well rounded as we'd like (Fisher's threes, and that's about it)



I may just be seeing it different than you though, so develop this out more, I'd like to share your perspective on this.

Perhaps game plan is a better description than identity. Last year it was run and feed Haws. What's the game plan now? Are we an inside out team? Jack up 3s team? Feed the post team? I'm not sure. Doesn't seem to be much of a game plan other than let's get KC another triple double because he doesn't have enough already and apparently triple doubles mean more than wins.



It's unorganized ball. And when you have a team that doesn't have a clear objective the objective becomes whatever the "dominant" team member deems it to be. It's just like a team brainstorm or meeting. If there is an agenda or a moderator the session goes well. If it's a free for all, well whoever has the "loudest" voice or is the most senior dictates things.



Rose appears to have little control over this team. And I suspect that's because there isn't much of a game plan.



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Huh, hasn't someone been saying something about Rose being a good coach who can get a lot of talented guys together but doesn't have what it takes to bring together a championship caliber team? I could have sworn someone was talking along those lines, yet some people seem to think he was just trying to defend Bronco through some crazy scheme.

Did someone say jack up 3's team? That's what it appears to be to me. When they're falling boy are they a hard team to beat. When they are not, BYU could hardly beat a high school team. I've seen them play good team ball but too often the temptation to bomb from outside is just too strong to resist. If it didn't go in, the next one will. The big guys under the basket will love me if this goes in. If it doesn't they can hopefully rebound and give me another shot.



I'm almost embarrassed by my sour grapes but I've seen this team play good team ball. I just wish they'd do it more of the time. There are good players at each position. Use them and help each other.

I've been thinking about this thread and agree with a lot of what Gunk is saying. Where I differ is placing the blame. I think Rose has a game plan which he is having to modify to bring the young guys along. But more of an impediment is the leadership, or lack of leadership from the seniors, mainly KC and Fisher. These guys had earned the right to lead this team and be the guts this year. I believe Rose put a lot on their shoulders this year and hoped they'd all work together bringing the rest of the guys along until it gelled into this years team. The problem we have seen is KC and fisher have been greedy and selfish in their play, KC especially. How many times are we going to see him pull up for a mid range jumper and miss while two other guts are open for better shots? He is forcing a different game than we have ever seen him play. I agree with whoever said he was playing himself out of an NBA spot. For this team to work and be successful these two seniors just need to follow Rose's gameplan and play for the team. Take it upon themselves to get the other guys involved and better. It's still possible these guys can be really good this year, but only if KC and Fisher are willing to take the lead and bring the team along. Coach Rose I'm sure isn't pleased with this type of play from these two either, but he probably believes they have earned the right to try different things out there. I'll change my tune and start blaming Rose more if he ignores their selfish play much longer and doesn't start reigning them in a bit. Kind of running out of time in the preseason, so hopefully change happens soon.

Very fair, BYULV.



I guess I am looking at it the same way many did in respects to Carlino. Before Carlino transferred many of the same things that were said of him are now being said of KC - selfish, out of control, poor leadership, etc. Some went so far as to say Carlino was willfully ignoring Rose. Only difference is KC is taking his shots closer to the basket. We blamed Rose for "letting" Carlino get away with such sloppy play, so I feel Rose should get the same level of blame when it comes to KC. Rose decides who is on the court.



I suppose we should give Rose the benefit of the doubt...for now. But he has a problem. The two players that are supposed to be his examples of "how to do things" are routinely the worst players on the court. Has to be really frustrating for the younger guys. If we can see it, they can see it.



Because I can't stop saying it enough, KC never should have been given PG duties and it's turned around to bite Rose and the team in the *&#.



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Gunk wrote:
Very fair, BYULV.



I guess I am looking at it the same way many did in respects to Carlino. Before Carlino transferred many of the same things that were said of him are now being said of KC - selfish, out of control, poor leadership, etc. Some went so far as to say Carlino was willfully ignoring Rose. Only difference is KC is taking his shots closer to the basket. We blamed Rose for "letting" Carlino get away with such sloppy play, so I feel Rose should get the same level of blame when it comes to KC. Rose decides who is on the court.



I suppose we should give Rose the benefit of the doubt...for now. But he has a problem. The two players that are supposed to be his examples of "how to do things" are routinely the worst players on the court. Has to be really frustrating for the younger guys. If we can see it, they can see it.



Because I can't stop saying it enough, KC never should have been given PG duties and it's turned around to bite Rose and the team in the *&#.



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I'm starting to come around to your way of thinking. I'll give Rose a few more games, but agree that its his job to rein these guys in and develop the other guys. Hopefully it all comes together, but without Rose stepping in its unlikely to resolve on its own. I haven't had much of a problem with KC at point until this year. He is a different player this year and not being a good point guard leading this team.

BYULV wrote:

Very fair, BYULV.



I guess I am looking at it the same way many did in respects to Carlino. Before Carlino transferred many of the same things that were said of him are now being said of KC - selfish, out of control, poor leadership, etc. Some went so far as to say Carlino was willfully ignoring Rose. Only difference is KC is taking his shots closer to the basket. We blamed Rose for "letting" Carlino get away with such sloppy play, so I feel Rose should get the same level of blame when it comes to KC. Rose decides who is on the court.



I suppose we should give Rose the benefit of the doubt...for now. But he has a problem. The two players that are supposed to be his examples of "how to do things" are routinely the worst players on the court. Has to be really frustrating for the younger guys. If we can see it, they can see it.



Because I can't stop saying it enough, KC never should have been given PG duties and it's turned around to bite Rose and the team in the *&#.



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I'm starting to come around to your way of thinking. I'll give Rose a few more games, but agree that its his job to rein these guys in and develop the other guys. Hopefully it all comes together, but without Rose stepping in its unlikely to resolve on its own. I haven't had much of a problem with KC at point until this year. He is a different player this year and not being a good point guard leading this team.

Haws painted over many of KC's limitations at PG. It's easy to rack up assists when you've got argueably the best shooter in school history on your team. Plus, the offense last year was centered around freeing Haws up for an open look. KC would just have to stand there while Haws moved and the team set screens to get Haws open. Easy pass. KC literally had to just dribble up the court and make a pass.



Now there is no Haws, KC isn't one to create for others, and KC seems bent on introducing a jump shot to round out his game. Rose needs to assert some control. I'd much rather watch the young guys try and learn than watch KC derail the team over his ego.



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To me the problem seems to be Fischer. He needs to find a way to get out hot in every game. In two of the losses Fischer struggled (Col was not just a struggle but a nightmare 0-9 from 3pt and 2-14, you better be getting a lot of ORB or it will be a long night).

Remember also how BYU struggled against Miss Valley and Adams St.? Again bad shooting nights for Fischer. We need Fischer to find a way to fight through off nights.

As for KC and PG duties, he is a very good PG. I don't get the grief. He can take just about anyone defending him to the hoop and make other defenders have to collapse on him. If they don't he is able to finish otherwise he can open up a shooter from 3 except they are not hitting.

If there is a weakness on this team it is experience (which effects confidence). When CF is off and mostly the young guys are in there you see a couple of missed shots and then a 1000 passes from then on with nobody wanting to take a shot. When led to several shots by Austin. I love his hustle but unless he is putting back a rebound our all alone under the basket, he should not be relied upon to be the offensive force. And he should never take a shot from further than 6 inches from the basket.

Which leads me to my next point. The defense has been atrocious. Even in the wins it has been terrible. I cannot believe how many times they collapse too soon on a play and how many times they leave their feet. We need a true D specialist to come in and teach. (maybe KC could become a player coach-watch how he rarely ever leaves the floor until he is sure it is a shot-but he does do all his blocking with his right hand so maybe not and it does help that he is 6 inches taller than most of the people he guards). And this has also lead to CK getting a lot of bench time waiting for the second half. The sad thing is that even the players know that they do better on the offensive side when they are making plays on defense. That actually may be the problem, they are trying too hard to make a play on D that they get themselves out of position and end up giving up an open shot etc.



For me this year is a gain experience year for the next few. Next year will be the one to start the domination. We have some very good players in system and some good ones joining in the next year or so. So I will be very happy if we make the dance being that his is a "rebuilding" year but I think we have enough talent to run through the WCC and get enough wins to make it in if we get a split with Gonzaga and sweep the rest. But I doubt we get a bid if we lose any conf games from here on out (unless we win out in Hawaii - which would probably mean a win of an undefeated OK).



Just my two cents.

imuakahuku wrote:
To me the problem seems to be Fischer. He needs to find a way to get out hot in every game. In two of the losses Fischer struggled (Col was not just a struggle but a nightmare 0-9 from 3pt and 2-14, you better be getting a lot of ORB or it will be a long night).

The problem with Fischer is that he is only good at one thing, and that is shooting 3s (unless you count out of control layups and contorting your body to get a foul a strength). When he's on, great. When he's off, BYU becomes very very beatable by even weak to very weak teams.



The problem with BYU basketball (to a lesser degree this year) is they are good at one thing, shooting the 3. When they are off, they will get beat most of the time unless Davis or KAufusi don't have ANYONE guarding them.

We will dance in '16. This team is talented. I have watched every game this year and last few years, and this team is deeper and potentially more talented than any we have had in a few years. I mean, think about it. Who is the Cusick coming off the bench, you know, the guy that is in there just to eat minutes? There really isn't a placeholder coming off the bench. All of you worried about player development didn't mention anything about Seljaas the last two games that he has had career games and played more minutes in each. Rose adjusts. He is a great coach. His KC at point guard mistake notwithstanding, he is still one of the best coaches in the NCAA. If this team has Eric Mika, or some of the other recruits, then we are undefeated at this point.



Rose is putting together a strong team, but it will take time for them to gel together. Hopefully the senior guards' ego doesn't prevent that from happening.Rose has recruited very well. He just needs to reign in his senior guards. And he is doing it. He benched KC for sloppy play against Colorado, and he came out and played much better against Colorado, and looked to share the ball.



Rose wasn't the problem, the senior guards were, and Rose is handling the situation. Credit goes to him for doing that. Bronco certainly didn't (with Riley Nelson). As long as KC continues to play unselfish ball, and dribbles with his head up and looks for the pass we will be fine. When he doesn't, Rose should bench him.

ready to change your tune brayden?



I just done get this team. we should not have a loss this year.

BroncoBot wrote:
ready to change your tune brayden?



I just done get this team. we should not have a loss this year.

Someone needs to remind fisher of that.

Whether this team is "talented" I will leave to the experts. My observation is that not one of last year's players has improved and this team does NOT play well. I shudder to think where this team would this team be without Davis.

BoiseBYU wrote:
Whether this team is "talented" I will leave to the experts. My observation is that not one of last year's players has improved and this team does NOT play well. I shudder to think where this team would this team be without Davis.

I would take it a step further and say that this team does not play well together. Seems to be lacking in leadership and as Rose says, "identity". There is not a go to guy in crucial moments. KC just doesn't seem to have the "it" factor. Missing Haws is obvious, but I would take a Halford and a Winder over this cast right now. Hope they can figure it out sooner than later.

Wolverine wrote:

Whether this team is "talented" I will leave to the experts. My observation is that not one of last year's players has improved and this team does NOT play well. I shudder to think where this team would this team be without Davis.

I would take it a step further and say that this team does not play well together. Seems to be lacking in leadership and as Rose says, "identity". There is not a go to guy in crucial moments. KC just doesn't seem to have the "it" factor. Missing Haws is obvious, but I would take a Halford and a Winder over this cast right now. Hope they can figure it out sooner than later.

I'd take Cusick over a few of the characters on the team this year.