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Church Re-evaluating Relationship with BSA

by Cougarfan87 · 7/29/2015

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Cougarfan87
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-re-evaluating-scouting-program?cid=HP_MO_7-27-2015_dPAD_fMNWS_xLIDyL2-1_



The long and short of it, the BSA voted to remove the ban on openly gay scoutmasters. The Church had requested that BSA delay the vote until August, as the Church's governing councils are not in their offices in July and do not meet. Of course, the policy did have a religious exemption that religious sponsored troops could still choose their own leaders.



My question is, do you think this is the straw that breaks the camel's back?



I think the Church needs to cut bait with BSA. The Human Rights campaign basically said that BSA did not go far enough, and allowing any chartering organizations to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation should not be allowed. Translation: the next round of lawsuits will be against the BSA for allowing churches to discriminate in who they select as scoutmasters.



I have long thought that BSA wasn't really connecting with our youth the way it did years ago. I am almost certain the Church already has a program in place to replace it. When Elder Christofferson was doing a leadership training here a couple of years ago, I asked him the question about BSA. He said President Monson has said that the Church will never leave BSA, but they may leave us. He also stated that the bretheren were aware of the issue and working on it. I took that to mean they have a back-up plan in place. He then jokingly said, "Earn all the merit badges you can." The fact that BSA ignored the request of the Church to delay the vote may mean that BSA has left the Church.



Anyway, I am interested in your thoughts on the matter. Please remain civil concerning those who struggle with same sex attraction, as it must be a very heavy burden for faithful LDS folks who have this struggle. In full disclosure, I have a sister who is a practicing lesbian. I love her and treat her with kindness, though it does not change my view of right and wrong. As Elder Holland said, don't judge me because I sin differently than you do. We all need help to overcome our weaknesses.
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Guest
I have heard some discussion among young men's leaders in my area that they have been made aware of some of the new features and aspects of the young men's program the Church has developed over the last few years which will run in conjunction with Duty to God. I anticipate that the Church will begin moving over to this new program within the year.



Boy Scouts, like you said, has left the Church, and I think we would have already cut ties years ago if it weren't for President Monson's fondness for the program. But it did allow us years to work on developing the replacement program.



I should also note that I don't know any details about the new program, just that I have heard that it does exist and has been in development for a few years and that it is not Duty to God, but a program that will run along side of it.
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scott715
If true I won't have to donate to friends of scouting or do youth protection training.
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snoscythe
Friends of Scouting drives this next month just got interesting.



The Church needs to get out of BSA--it's turned into an absolute time/money sink that really detracts from the mission of the Church as opposed to promoting it. At whatever point someone decided that young men should get their Eagles before they turned 14, scouting began to overshadow the true principles of the young mens program.



In keeping with its drive towards unified curriculum, the Church needs to implement a global program of youth development with a companion program for the young women.
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StatsCougar
I think that the path for the BSA and church have now split. I have heard that church has 20% of the boys in the BSA and as it asked for a delay so the church leader could counsel together on this matter and you do not allow it, then it is likely you do not want them at the table, because you know how they will vote. Had the vote been delayed, I wonder if people would have changed their minds as church leaders would have called friends that are on the BSA council. I also wonder if BSA set the vote up purposely knowing that the church leaders were on vacation.
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billbillbillbill
I'm a major believer/supporter of scouting and would be sad to see a split. As most of us know, it is hard to run the full scouting program with small numbers of boys and other issues. I have seen the rise in the number of boys going to their ward troop on mutual night and then attending a community troop that has the numbers for real patrols, trained leaders, etc. So I could see a future where boys who want to do scouting go to young mens and then have a troop they belong to. It would really depend if the church program takes into account the outdoor skills which I doubt would be there initially.



One thing I am blown away by is the amount of people critical of the church's support of the BSA. Maybe I have been living under a rock but so many in my ward and others can't wait for the split to happen. I was not a popular kid and scouting was my social group. I was able to work on a summer camp staff, was active in the Order of the Arrow, etc and it really helped me get through my adolescence. My 6 year old is so excited to become a cub scout when he is 8 and that would be hard to not have that available.



Anyways, those are a few of my thoughts.
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snoscythe
The girls and young women of the Church do just fine with Faith in God and Personal Progress. Mutual activities will go on, and families that want their boys in BSA can still do that outside of the Church.
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Cougarfan87
billbillbillbill wrote:
I'm a major believer/supporter of scouting and would be sad to see a split. As most of us know, it is hard to run the full scouting program with small numbers of boys and other issues. I have seen the rise in the number of boys going to their ward troop on mutual night and then attending a community troop that has the numbers for real patrols, trained leaders, etc. So I could see a future where boys who want to do scouting go to young mens and then have a troop they belong to. It would really depend if the church program takes into account the outdoor skills which I doubt would be there initially.



One thing I am blown away by is the amount of people critical of the church's support of the BSA. Maybe I have been living under a rock but so many in my ward and others can't wait for the split to happen. I was not a popular kid and scouting was my social group. I was able to work on a summer camp staff, was active in the Order of the Arrow, etc and it really helped me get through my adolescence. My 6 year old is so excited to become a cub scout when he is 8 and that would be hard to not have that available.



Anyways, those are a few of my thoughts.


Thanks for sharing. I am glad Scouting provided you what you needed at the time. It is so important to teach our kids to be kind to everyone. My son is worried about middle school, and I told him just be kind to everyone, don't participate in putting others down, be friendly to everyone, and especially to those who need a friend. That may not make him the most popular kid (which is unimportant to me as a parent anyway), but he will be happier, and hopefully help others who may be having a hard time.
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ABYUFAN
A bit on my perspective, I am the District Eagle Advancement chair, my wife, a unit commissioner and the Day camp program director. My two boys ae 17 and 15, one is an eagle with 3 palms, the other a life scout. With respect to scouting we’re “all in.” Or as I say to my wife – we’re “all in” – until we’re “all out.” I love the scouting program, but would not feel any remorse leaving it tomorrow should the church develop a new program; and I believe that there are many many more like me out there. My biggest concern is that I am currently constantly frustrated by the lack of support that many parents give the program it in central California. My biggest concern is that if these folks who cannot support something where there is a big infrastructure there, will absolutely crash without it, and what happens to the youth activates without it? Stated another way - If the Church comes up with a program (which I’m sure that they already have) and they ask the adult leaders to implement it, what keeps the adult leaders from mailing it in even worse than they already are?

Like the past 5 years, I was at scout camp this year; our new YM president (who has two boys in the program) refused to walk half a mile up a hill to go to a night time presentation. But the next day was talking about - rather than going to scout camp next year, taking the boys on a “50 miler” because it would be “cheaper.” So a guy who cannot walk up a hill one night wants me to trust my boys with him on a 50 miler next summer all over the matter of a few bucks? No thanks. I don’t want my boys to have to perform CPR on him, or carry him to an emergency helicopter (although that would be an awesome story.) So what happens to the summer adventure program when these goofballs don’t have a ready-made structured camping experience available to provide to the youth? I’ve assumed that it would have to be done at a stake level, because so many wards would muff it.

At least that’s take on the situation.
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ABYUFAN
StatsCougar wrote:
I think that the path for the BSA and church have now split. I have heard that church has 20% of the boys in the BSA and as it asked for a delay so the church leader could counsel together on this matter and you do not allow it, then it is likely you do not want them at the table, because you know how they will vote. Had the vote been delayed, I wonder if people would have changed their minds as church leaders would have called friends that are on the BSA council. I also wonder if BSA set the vote up purposely knowing that the church leaders were on vacation.



My guess is similar to yours. I'm guessing that the church member's vote on the item was no secret, the church probably asked for a delay (I'm guessing because they saw the writing on the wall and wanted to put the finishing touches on their program) and BSA said - you're leaving anyway, we're not putting it off, so the divorce was sudden not un acrimonious. I’m thinking that we get a new program announced at General Conference in October.
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billbillbillbill
ABYUFAN wrote:
Like the past 5 years, I was at scout camp this year; our new YM president (who has two boys in the program) refused to walk half a mile up a hill to go to a night time presentation. But the next day was talking about - rather than going to scout camp next year, taking the boys on a “50 miler” because it would be “cheaper.” So a guy who cannot walk up a hill one night wants me to trust my boys with him on a 50 miler next summer all over the matter of a few bucks? No thanks. I don’t want my boys to have to perform CPR on him, or carry him to an emergency helicopter (although that would be an awesome story.) So what happens to the summer adventure program when these goofballs don’t have a ready-made structured camping experience available to provide to the youth? I’ve assumed that it would have to be done at a stake level, because so many wards would muff it.

At least that’s take on the situation.


I know my parent's stake does a stake summer scout camp every couple of years with their own merit badge councilors and program which has been successful. The Salt Lake Tribune talked to the Utah councils and said they are independent of the national BSA and their camps are too so possibly the existing scout camps in Utah could be independent or become church run similar to the Heber Valley Girls camp. I know Hinckley Scout Ranch already has a program for Young Women offered there.
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jvquarterback
Well I'd be happy if the church dropped scouting regardless of the recent decisions. As a youth I despised scouting - partly the uniform but mostly the Lord of the Flies style youth leadership we had. My wife says the reason I've had to work with the young men in scouting for 15 years is because of how much I hated it as a kid.



For the past 13 years I've forced the other leaders to let the boys actually decide and plan their activities and it's made all the difference. No mandated overnight trips every month and kids who don't want to go to scout camp plan another, much cheaper (and much more fun) activity.



My number one reason for wanting the end of LDS church sponsored scouting is the decreased meeting times for adults. If the church ditches scouting I will jump for joy every time I hear about a roundtable, rechartering, or friends of scouting that I won't have to participate in.
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nuk13
It looks to me like the homosexuals and liberals are clawing to dominate the rest of us and they are using force and shame to do it. They have the supreme court and other factions of government on their side. You can only take so much. The scouts made their choice and the church will make theirs.



The Baptists are not going to like this either. I don't know how the Methodists and Catholics will take it. It's a sad day.
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Schmoe
Good riddance to the BSA. It's a hollow shell of what it used to/was meant to be. The founders of scouting must be rolling in their graves. How can we teach young men to stand up for something when the organization and the very leaders they're supposed to look up to won't? I think that we'll see membership numbers cut in half pretty quickly and the BSA will then die a slow death. RIP.
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Ddawg
I have fond memories of Scouting trips in my Ward troop. Our Scoutmaster drove us to our camping site, dropped us off, and drove to a hotel where he spent the night. He showed up the next day about 10am - with his breakfast in a bag from a fast food chain. Us boys? We had a great time. All the guys had paper routes and mowed lawns - they used the money to buy pot. They had their canteens filled with cheap wine they stole from their non-members parents homes. So, all Friday night, they played poker, smoked pot, and drank cheap wine. There were about 3 of us that were too scared to join in. I was one of those 3 wussies. We huddled in our tent and listened to the kewl crowd whoop it up - wanting to be included - but glad we weren't. Scouting was an interesting experience.
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scott715
Were you there with no adult leaders? I can't believe that would happen.
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Ddawg
scott715 wrote:
Were you there with no adult leaders? I can't believe that would happen.


No, we had an adult leader. He drove us to our campsite, dropped us off, and drove to a hotel. He came back the next morning around 10 am.
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scott715
No supervision at the camp? What if something happened like an injury? That leader would have been in big trouble.
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Ddawg
scott715 wrote:
No supervision at the camp? What if something happened like an injury? That leader would have been in big trouble.


Very true. That's why no one in the troop ever told their parents what was going on. There were about 10-12 of us at any given time. No one ever ever ratted out our Scoutmaster - he was well liked. He could not have cared less about camping - but he was cool. We also didn't do any camp cooking while he was Scoutmaster. He always brought us fast food breakfast in a bag when he showed up. He lasted about 2 years until he moved out of the ward. As I recall, not many merit badges were earned during that time.
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Mars
billbillbillbill wrote:
One thing I am blown away by is the amount of people critical of the church's support of the BSA. Maybe I have been living under a rock but so many in my ward and others can't wait for the split to happen.

Well, consider the budget split between LDS boys and LDS girls. If you said that the boys got 95%, and the girls 5%, you might be overstating the girls' amount...
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