Rose's Inexplicable Slump Continues

From Greg Wrubell prior to tip-off today:


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Tonight's loss = 16 point margin of defeat, bringing the average gap to 13.6

And yet, this is probably the first time I was satisfied with the effort I saw from start to finish by BYU. They played a great game and I credit Rose. They were playing arguably one of the top 10 teams in the country who had a lot of things go right for them. This loss didn't bother me.

BroncoBot wrote:
This loss didn't bother me.

Lots of things about this loss bothered me.

snoscythe wrote:

This loss didn't bother me.

Lots of things about this loss bothered me.

Let's discuss.

Defense wins championships. Is there really some surprise about this? I was more bummed we lost last year. This year, not so much. Austin and winder out vs a top ten team.

Inexplicable? Maybe a little dramatic?

Cougs_Rule wrote:
Defense wins championships. Is there really some surprise about this? I was more bummed we lost last year. This year, not so much. Austin and winder out vs a top ten team.

Inexplicable? Maybe a little dramatic?

Defense wins championships is just a silly way of saying the more athletic, bigger, stronger and deeper team can usually play better defense for the entire game. They also tend to be the more talented team. So you could just say the team with more talented players win championships.



Or as we saw with the Spurs last year and the Mavericks a few years before that, you can have a okay defense if your offense is all-world.

Last night's loss isn't "inexplicable" whatsoever. Played the #7 team in the country who will be a #2 seed out west. Played the #7 team in the country who has dominating big men going up against three freshman and a would be offensive lineman. Played the #7 team in the country who has a senior experienced guard line and the WCC's defensive player of the year. Played the #7 team in the country who is coached by arguably one of the finest and classiest coaches in the country. Played the #7 team in the country in a hard-fought, down and dirty contest and got beat by the better team. Seems to me that this is pretty easy to explain.

Wolverine wrote:
Last night's loss isn't "inexplicable" whatsoever. Played the #7 team in the country who will be a #2 seed out west. Played the #7 team in the country who has dominating big men going up against three freshman and a would be offensive lineman. Played the #7 team in the country who has a senior experienced guard line and the WCC's defensive player of the year. Played the #7 team in the country who is coached by arguably one of the finest and classiest coaches in the country. Played the #7 team in the country in a hard-fought, down and dirty contest and got beat by the better team. Seems to me that this is pretty easy to explain.

That's all fine and dandy, but not on point. Thread title refers to the slump as inexplicable, not last night's loss.

BroncoBot wrote:

BroncoBot wrote:
This loss didn't bother me.

Lots of things about this loss bothered me.

Let's discuss.

1) Fischer and Haws continuing to play Jimmer-esque defense without Jimmer-esque offense to compensate

2) Frank Bartley's complete and utter inability to put the ball in the hoop from within 10 feet of the rim

3) Tyler Haw's penchant for disappearing in big games

4) Andrus more concerned about trying to hold Karnowski's hand than play any semblance of defense

5) Andrus continuing to come off the bench before Nielson

6) Stupid/desperate shots when the game is already out of hand that led to what should have been a 9 point loss instead being a 16 point loss



And so on.

snoscythe wrote:

Last night's loss isn't "inexplicable" whatsoever. Played the #7 team in the country who will be a #2 seed out west. Played the #7 team in the country who has dominating big men going up against three freshman and a would be offensive lineman. Played the #7 team in the country who has a senior experienced guard line and the WCC's defensive player of the year. Played the #7 team in the country who is coached by arguably one of the finest and classiest coaches in the country. Played the #7 team in the country in a hard-fought, down and dirty contest and got beat by the better team. Seems to me that this is pretty easy to explain.

That's all fine and dandy, but not on point. Thread title refers to the slump as inexplicable, not last night's loss.

My bad. I thought the thread title was referring as to why the "inexplicable" slump continued as of last night.

Wolverine wrote:

Wolverine wrote:
Last night's loss isn't "inexplicable" whatsoever. Played the #7 team in the country who will be a #2 seed out west. Played the #7 team in the country who has dominating big men going up against three freshman and a would be offensive lineman. Played the #7 team in the country who has a senior experienced guard line and the WCC's defensive player of the year. Played the #7 team in the country who is coached by arguably one of the finest and classiest coaches in the country. Played the #7 team in the country in a hard-fought, down and dirty contest and got beat by the better team. Seems to me that this is pretty easy to explain.

That's all fine and dandy, but not on point. Thread title refers to the slump as inexplicable, not last night's loss.

My bad. I thought the thread title was referring as to why the "inexplicable" slump continued as of last night.

Still not sure why it would be inexplicable that we have gone 0 & 4 in tournament games, considering that the Mountain West Conference was one of the best conferences in the nation when we were in it, with San Diego State, University of New Mexico, UNLV, and the occasional University of Utah or Colorado State being ranked routinely in the top 25, top 10 or even top 5.



After all that, throw in that the tournament was not played on a neutral court, and that the team hosting the tournament had like a 95% winning percentage at home.



I don't think inexplicable is the word you should be going for... 0-4 in the MWC and WCC tourney championship games is very "explicable."



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

I am disappointed that BYU has not yet won a WCC conference tournament.

The home court advantage excuse for UNLV doesn't explain the losses to SDSU. Only one championship loss was to UNLV. Gonzaga last year wasn't #7 in the country--they weren't even ranked, so that one's hard to swallow as a valid excuse as well. Just take a look at Rose's history of exits, and tell me you don't find it bothersome that in 11 years he hasn't been able to win a single conference championship. In almost every exit, BYU was the favored team and was sent home in an upset.



BYU's exits in conference tourneys under Rose:[/u]

2006--74-70 loss to Utah (14-14) in the MWC quarterfinals. BYU came in w/a 20-8 record.

2007--78-70 loss to #25 UNLV in MWC championship. BYU came in ranked #23

2008--76-71 loss to UNLV (NR) in MWC champship. BYU came in #23 and an 8 pt favorite

2009--64-62 loss to SDSU (NR) in MWC semis. BYU came in #25.

2010--70-66 loss to UNLV (NR) in MWC semis. BYU came in #14.

2011--72-54 loss to SDSU (#7) in MWC finals. BYU came in #8, but had lost Davies.

2012--77-58 loss to Gonzaga (NR) in WCC semis. BYU was not ranked either.

2013--72-69 loss to San Diego (16-17) in WCC semis. BYU was 21-11 coming in.

2014--75-64 loss to Gonzaga (NR) in WCC finals. BYU was not ranked either.

2015--91-75 loss to Gonzaga (#7) in WCC finals. BYU was not ranked.

hawkwing wrote:
I am disappointed that BYU has not yet won a WCC conference tournament.

With what personnel did you expect this? The move to the WCC came with its share of disappointment both to the basketball staff/team/fans, but also to recruits. Our most talented teams were either 2011's team or last years, and both were riddled with injury. CColl and Stephen Rogers on 2011 and subsequently 2012, and KColl got injured in last year's WCC tourney game.



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snoscythe wrote:
The home court advantage excuse for UNLV doesn't explain the losses to SDSU. Only one championship loss was to UNLV. Gonzaga last year wasn't #7 in the country--they weren't even ranked, so that one's hard to swallow as a valid excuse as well. Just take a look at Rose's history of exits, and tell me you don't find it bothersome that in 11 years he hasn't been able to win a single conference championship. In almost every exit, BYU was the favored team and was sent home in an upset.



BYU's exits in conference tourneys under Rose:[/u]

2006--74-70 loss to Utah (14-14) in the MWC quarterfinals. BYU came in w/a 20-8 record.

2007--78-70 loss to #25 UNLV in MWC championship. BYU came in ranked #23

2008--76-71 loss to UNLV (NR) in MWC champship. BYU came in #23 and an 8 pt favorite

2009--64-62 loss to SDSU (NR) in MWC semis. BYU came in #25.

2010--70-66 loss to UNLV (NR) in MWC semis. BYU came in #14.

2011--72-54 loss to SDSU (#7) in MWC finals. BYU came in #8, but had lost Davies.

2012--77-58 loss to Gonzaga (NR) in WCC semis. BYU was not ranked either.

2013--72-69 loss to San Diego (16-17) in WCC semis. BYU was 21-11 coming in.

2014--75-64 loss to Gonzaga (NR) in WCC finals. BYU was not ranked either.

2015--91-75 loss to Gonzaga (#7) in WCC finals. BYU was not ranked.

This is exactly what I wanted to look up but never did. BYU in nearly all of those games came out FLAT. It was one of the few things that irritated me about Dave Rose led teams, total shrink jobs in big games. But last night was not one of those times. BYU was clearly overmatched and Mark Few has been around the block enough times to know how to exploit this BYU team. It was only a matter of time before he got it through his players heads that getting the ball into the paint was the sure way to win this game going away.



That, and as you mentioned BYU started panicking with about 8 minutes left and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. But the effort certainly was there and for about 32 minutes Gonzaga had to question whether or not they would win that game.



If we are going to dwell on the negative of last night, one of the most frustrating things was watching Karnowski catch the ball 15 feet from the rim and not have a defender pick him up until he was 5 feet away and clearly within range. I understand our bigs were probably trying to defend the paint, but it made it too easy (too many times) for their bigs to get to the paint and put up a high percentage shot.

Brayden Green wrote:

I am disappointed that BYU has not yet won a WCC conference tournament.

With what personnel did you expect this? The move to the WCC came with its share of disappointment both to the basketball staff/team/fans, but also to recruits. Our most talented teams were either 2011's team or last years, and both were riddled with injury. CColl and Stephen Rogers on 2011 and subsequently 2012, and KColl got injured in last year's WCC tourney game.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

Top of the WCC is as good as the top of the MWC (or better depending on the year). But I agree that it is disappointing (and I don't think recruiting has suffered that much) that BYU hasn't won the WCC tournament title yet.

BroncoBot wrote:

hawkwing wrote:
I am disappointed that BYU has not yet won a WCC conference tournament.

With what personnel did you expect this? The move to the WCC came with its share of disappointment both to the basketball staff/team/fans, but also to recruits. Our most talented teams were either 2011's team or last years, and both were riddled with injury. CColl and Stephen Rogers on 2011 and subsequently 2012, and KColl got injured in last year's WCC tourney game.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

Top of the WCC is as good as the top of the MWC (or better depending on the year). But I agree that it is disappointing (and I don't think recruiting has suffered that much) that BYU hasn't won the WCC tournament title yet.

I don't think that our recruiting has suffered AT ALL. I cannot think of one recruit that we have actually lost that would have come if we were in the MWC (and on TV A LOT LESS)



It stinks that we haven't won a WCC tourney championship yet, but I think that next year is our year

ABYUFAN wrote:

Brayden Green wrote:

I am disappointed that BYU has not yet won a WCC conference tournament.

With what personnel did you expect this? The move to the WCC came with its share of disappointment both to the basketball staff/team/fans, but also to recruits. Our most talented teams were either 2011's team or last years, and both were riddled with injury. CColl and Stephen Rogers on 2011 and subsequently 2012, and KColl got injured in last year's WCC tourney game.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

Top of the WCC is as good as the top of the MWC (or better depending on the year). But I agree that it is disappointing (and I don't think recruiting has suffered that much) that BYU hasn't won the WCC tournament title yet.

I don't think that our recruiting has suffered AT ALL. I cannot think of one recruit that we have actually lost that would have come if we were in the MWC (and on TV A LOT LESS)



It stinks that we haven't won a WCC tourney championship yet, but I think that next year is our year

I don't think we have the tools next year, but 3 years from now had better be our year.

snoscythe wrote:
The home court advantage excuse for UNLV doesn't explain the losses to SDSU. Only one championship loss was to UNLV. Gonzaga last year wasn't #7 in the country--they weren't even ranked, so that one's hard to swallow as a valid excuse as well. Just take a look at Rose's history of exits, and tell me you don't find it bothersome that in 11 years he hasn't been able to win a single conference championship. In almost every exit, BYU was the favored team and was sent home in an upset.



BYU's exits in conference tourneys under Rose:[/u]

2006--74-70 loss to Utah (14-14) in the MWC quarterfinals. BYU came in w/a 20-8 record.

2007--78-70 loss to #25 UNLV in MWC championship. BYU came in ranked #23

2008--76-71 loss to UNLV (NR) in MWC champship. BYU came in #23 and an 8 pt favorite

2009--64-62 loss to SDSU (NR) in MWC semis. BYU came in #25.

2010--70-66 loss to UNLV (NR) in MWC semis. BYU came in #14.

2011--72-54 loss to SDSU (#7) in MWC finals. BYU came in #8, but had lost Davies.

2012--77-58 loss to Gonzaga (NR) in WCC semis. BYU was not ranked either.

2013--72-69 loss to San Diego (16-17) in WCC semis. BYU was 21-11 coming in.

2014--75-64 loss to Gonzaga (NR) in WCC finals. BYU was not ranked either.

2015--91-75 loss to Gonzaga (#7) in WCC finals. BYU was not ranked.

What does explain the loss to SDSU is that they were #8 in the country, and that we were without Davies, and - Oh yeah - they had a guy that was the NBA Finals MVP last year on their team...



Like I said, we have lost to some very quality teams. The only puzzling or "inexplicable" loss there is to San Diego. That was the year that Rose decided to bench Carlino (who just earned 2nd team All Big East) in favor of Craig Cusick at starting point guard, so he earned every loss on that schedule, in my opinion. When he finally went Calvert and Carlino towards the end of the year in the NIT, we started tearing it up, losing in the Semi's to eventual winner Baylor.

ABYUFAN wrote:

Brayden Green wrote:

I am disappointed that BYU has not yet won a WCC conference tournament.

With what personnel did you expect this? The move to the WCC came with its share of disappointment both to the basketball staff/team/fans, but also to recruits. Our most talented teams were either 2011's team or last years, and both were riddled with injury. CColl and Stephen Rogers on 2011 and subsequently 2012, and KColl got injured in last year's WCC tourney game.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

Top of the WCC is as good as the top of the MWC (or better depending on the year). But I agree that it is disappointing (and I don't think recruiting has suffered that much) that BYU hasn't won the WCC tournament title yet.

I don't think that our recruiting has suffered AT ALL. I cannot think of one recruit that we have actually lost that would have come if we were in the MWC (and on TV A LOT LESS)



It stinks that we haven't won a WCC tourney championship yet, but I think that next year is our year

Jordan Loveridge comes to mind. I'm sure there are others. Loveridge commited to a Utah team in shambles, and quoted that playing in the Pac-12 was a big factor in making his commitment.