How did the Post cupboard get so bare?

I know this has been discussed ad nauseum, but a combined 2 points and 2 rebounds by 4 post players in 40 minutes of play? Not only was it bad, it was downright embarrassing. How on earth did the cupboard get so bare in the post? I get that Mika was a beast and is now on a mission. Don't you plan for that scenario? I get that Austin got hurt. Don't you plan for some sort of serviceable backup for that scenario? Before last summer, Kaufusi wasn't even part of the plan, if there even is a plan when it comes to the Post position. If last night wasn't a wake up call for the future, then seasons like this one become the norm and not the exception.

-Live by the three and die by the three.

-Run and gun till ya can't run no more.

-Score more points than your opponent; as opposed to, hold your opponent to fewer points than you score. Scheme, Mentality, go recruit.

-Rose knows offense. Bronco knows Defense.

-Rose/BYU recruits/attracts scoring guards; Bronco/BYU recruits linebackers.

-Mormons genetically have a lot of tall, lanky, skinny white guys.

-Worthington is pretty much a flop. Harward was a flop. Nielson is a flop with a sort of 3-point shot; Kaufusi is not a god-send, but imagine Nielson getting all his minutes? Yikes!

-What big men recruits has BYU missed on besides Jordan Loveridge, who seems more like a stretch four, though I don't know his game that well. They just don't flock to BYU.

-And your senior reliable guy, who still doesn't score but occassionally put backs, is OUT.



Pretty much sums up the bare cupboard. Did I leave anything out?

Bigs are a huge recruiting hole and failure by Rose and staff so far, with the exception of Mika.



Worthington was our only useful big against SMC for the sole reason that while he was in we didn't need to double team whats his name, neither Kaufusi nor Neilson were able to even slow him down at all.

With The Rose offense - which is up tempo - run and gun, the post players need to be able to run and get up and down the court fast. When I was at UH with Phi Slamma Jamma, they had Olajuwan who could fill that role. They need to find a similar player like Brandon Davies and they will be fine. Cupboard has been bare for this position as Rose also had to find stretch forwards who can shoot. He has that in upcoming recruits but not with current roster. Kafusi is the player with biggest upside but he is still learning the game.



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Don't forget Rose saw the weakness and had two transfers coming in to help- Aytes -- who we originally recruited and Kyle Davis. We have had bad luck about Aytes not being able to get healthy and Austin being out at the same time.



The fact that we had spots for two transfers also means that we missed out on some big man recruits.



Oh and Sharp has been a no show. If he had shown average development he would be playing big minutes.

Recruiting bigs is really limited for Rose. Again, if you're a 6' 10" beast of an athlete you can go pretty much anywhere you want. We lucked out Mika wanted to go to BYU.



Kaufusi is a huge project. The rest are what they are. I don't see them getting any better.



What's interesting is there are clearly tall enough mormon kids. But for some reason rather than develop back to the basket post moves, they all opt to become "stretch" 4 and 5s. They all want to be like Dirk. Newsflash! Dirk has a post up game too! It's why he was so potent, he could take it inside and outside.



We should avoid all "stretch" 4s moving forward. "Stretch" is just a term for a tall, weak guy who's afraid to mix it up down low.



We should also start looking internationally. For some reason, we haven't looked beyond the US in years.

Here are the bigs (listed as F or C on BYU's roster) from the last six seasons who could possibly be on the roster. I've also listed what year they would be if there on the team this year as well in prior years. For prior years, I'm only listing those guys who potentially could be on this year's roster.



2014-15:

C - Nate Austin (Sr) - injured

C - Corbin Kaufusi (Fr) - rotational player

C - Isaac Neilsen (Fr) - rotational player

C - Luke Worthington (So) - starter

F - Dalton Nixon (Fr) - rotational player

F - Josh Sharp (Sr) - part-time player

F - Ryan Andrus (Fr) - part-time player

F - Jamal Aytes (So) - Redshirting?

F - Kyle Davis (Jr) - Redshirting



2013-14:

C - Eric Mika (So) - mission (starter)

F - Graham Pingree (So) - mission (bench player)



2012-13:

C - Ian Harward (RS So) - mission? (rare-part-time player)

F - Bronson Kaufusi (Jr) - football player (part-time player)



I don't know who is managing the roster, but it's clear that Rose and staff have done a poor job at managing missions and recruiting players who can play in the low-post.

Gunk wrote:
Recruiting bigs is really limited for Rose. Again, if you're a 6' 10" beast of an athlete you can go pretty much anywhere you want. We lucked out Mika wanted to go to BYU.



Kaufusi is a huge project. The rest are what they are. I don't see them getting any better.



What's interesting is there are clearly tall enough mormon kids. But for some reason rather than develop back to the basket post moves, they all opt to become "stretch" 4 and 5s. They all want to be like Dirk. Newsflash! Dirk has a post up game too! It's why he was so potent, he could take it inside and outside.



We should avoid all "stretch" 4s moving forward. "Stretch" is just a term for a tall, weak guy who's afraid to mix it up down low.



We should also start looking internationally. For some reason, we haven't looked beyond the US in years.

Inability to recruit talented big men is no excuse for lack of big men production, rather it indicates a huge failure on the part of Coach Rose and his staff in recruitment.



It is unacceptable that a program that is perennially top 50 cannot recruit a big man, while a team that is 25-50 spots lower can recruit 2 or 3 bigs that are all better than our best guy.

Gunk wrote:

We should avoid all "stretch" 4s moving forward. "Stretch" is just a term for a tall, weak guy who's afraid to mix it up down low.

Best part of the quote!

hawkwing wrote:

Recruiting bigs is really limited for Rose. Again, if you're a 6' 10" beast of an athlete you can go pretty much anywhere you want. We lucked out Mika wanted to go to BYU.



Kaufusi is a huge project. The rest are what they are. I don't see them getting any better.



What's interesting is there are clearly tall enough mormon kids. But for some reason rather than develop back to the basket post moves, they all opt to become "stretch" 4 and 5s. They all want to be like Dirk. Newsflash! Dirk has a post up game too! It's why he was so potent, he could take it inside and outside.



We should avoid all "stretch" 4s moving forward. "Stretch" is just a term for a tall, weak guy who's afraid to mix it up down low.



We should also start looking internationally. For some reason, we haven't looked beyond the US in years.

Inability to recruit talented big men is no excuse for lack of big men production, rather it indicates a huge failure on the part of Coach Rose and his staff in recruitment.



It is unacceptable that a program that is perennially top 50 cannot recruit a big man, while a team that is 25-50 spots lower can recruit 2 or 3 bigs that are all better than our best guy.

Gosh darn it, that Dave Rose. And the funny thing is, notwithstanding your criticism having SOME validity, still, the "pass" exists for Dave and not Bronco.



The international idea has some intrigue. But yes, Dave has to put a little more priority on maybe some JC hole fillers at post. One (Aytes) was not enough. But he also did not have any schollies. Who gets cut out of the guards?

Cougs_Rule wrote:

Gunk wrote:
Recruiting bigs is really limited for Rose. Again, if you're a 6' 10" beast of an athlete you can go pretty much anywhere you want. We lucked out Mika wanted to go to BYU.



Kaufusi is a huge project. The rest are what they are. I don't see them getting any better.



What's interesting is there are clearly tall enough mormon kids. But for some reason rather than develop back to the basket post moves, they all opt to become "stretch" 4 and 5s. They all want to be like Dirk. Newsflash! Dirk has a post up game too! It's why he was so potent, he could take it inside and outside.



We should avoid all "stretch" 4s moving forward. "Stretch" is just a term for a tall, weak guy who's afraid to mix it up down low.



We should also start looking internationally. For some reason, we haven't looked beyond the US in years.

Inability to recruit talented big men is no excuse for lack of big men production, rather it indicates a huge failure on the part of Coach Rose and his staff in recruitment.



It is unacceptable that a program that is perennially top 50 cannot recruit a big man, while a team that is 25-50 spots lower can recruit 2 or 3 bigs that are all better than our best guy.

Gosh darn it, that Dave Rose. And the funny thing is, notwithstanding your criticism having SOME validity, still, the "pass" exists for Dave and not Bronco.



The international idea has some intrigue. But yes, Dave has to put a little more priority on maybe some JC hole fillers at post. One (Aytes) was not enough. But he also did not have any schollies. Who gets cut out of the guards?

I think this thread is proof that Dave isn't getting a pass.

First off, the two guys that are supposed to be playing the 4 and 5 are injured, and one may not play at all this year. How many programs have bigs that go 4 to 5 deep in college? Not many.



Second, people that don't want stretch 4's on their team clearly do not understand the direction basketball as a whole is taking.



Third, up until last season our big man coach was 5'9" on a good day.

stuckinbig10country wrote:
First off, the two guys that are supposed to be playing the 4 and 5 are injured, and one may not play at all this year. How many programs have bigs that go 4 to 5 deep in college? Not many.



Second, people that don't want stretch 4's on their team clearly do not understand the direction basketball as a whole is taking.



Third, up until last season our big man coach was 5'9" on a good day.

Stretch 4s are the trend, but what all these wannabe stretch 4s are forgetting is the post game still has to be there. It isn't ditch the post and become a shooter. It's add shooting to the post play. They need to be a 4 first.



Secondly, I'd be fine if with a "stretch" 4 on our team if the "stretch" 4 actually did any stretching. Nixon, for example, who fancies himself a "stretch" 4 is shooting 20% from the 3 point line. He's made a total of 3 three pointers out of the 15 he's taken. He isn't doing any stretching.



Nielsen also aspires to be a "stretch" 4. He's shooting 7 - 22 (32%) from the arc.



Austin has stated multiple times he tries to pattern his game after Dirk, and after his freshmen season we all thought we were going to have a legit stretch 4. Instead, his outside shot has completely disappeared. He's 1 - 5 from the arc this season and last season he only attempted 4 three-pointers.



Essentially our "stretch" fours aren't doing any stretching because they aren't a threat at all. There's no reason to send a defender out because even if they do shoot it there's basically just a 1 in 5 chance they make it. I'd let our 4s shoot it all day from the outside.

So, you do realize that shooting 32% is close to 1 point per shot? You have to shoot 50% on 2 point shots to get the same value as shooting 32% from 3.



The average shooting percentage on non-restricted area 2 point shots in the NBA is about 42%, and is likely lower in college.



In the NBA, restricted area FG% is only about 56% (again, lower in college).



Outside of FT and restricted area shots, the best shot is the 3 point shot.



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stuckinbig10country wrote:

The average shooting percentage on non-restricted area 2 point shots in the NBA is about 42%, and is likely lower in college.



In the NBA, restricted area FG% is only about 56% (again, lower in college).



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I would suggest that unless you are playing one of the Kentucky's of the college world, restriccted area is going to be the highest FG% in college, simply because having a big man who is a good defender is difficult to find, and there are so many teams in college that the concentration of good post defenders is low. NBA teams all have a decent shot blocker who has a primary job of protecting the paint.



It would be nice to see some research on this topic, actually.

BroncoBot wrote:

The average shooting percentage on non-restricted area 2 point shots in the NBA is about 42%, and is likely lower in college.



In the NBA, restricted area FG% is only about 56% (again, lower in college).



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I would suggest that unless you are playing one of the Kentucky's of the college world, restriccted area is going to be the highest FG% in college, simply because having a big man who is a good defender is difficult to find, and there are so many teams in college that the concentration of good post defenders is low. NBA teams all have a decent shot blocker who has a primary job of protecting the paint.



It would be nice to see some research on this topic, actually.

I would be very surprised if College players don't shoot more poorly in the restricted area. The ability to play true zone defenses and less skilled players seems likely to be to add up to poor shooting.

Which is why I'd like to see some hard numbers on it. It really would be interesting.

Qman wrote:

stuckinbig10country wrote:

The average shooting percentage on non-restricted area 2 point shots in the NBA is about 42%, and is likely lower in college.



In the NBA, restricted area FG% is only about 56% (again, lower in college).



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I would suggest that unless you are playing one of the Kentucky's of the college world, restriccted area is going to be the highest FG% in college, simply because having a big man who is a good defender is difficult to find, and there are so many teams in college that the concentration of good post defenders is low. NBA teams all have a decent shot blocker who has a primary job of protecting the paint.



It would be nice to see some research on this topic, actually.

I would be very surprised if College players don't shoot more poorly in the restricted area. The ability to play true zone defenses and less skilled players seems likely to be to add up to poor shooting.

My point was someone was cracking on Nielsen for shooting 3s even though he only makes 32% and that's almost 1 point per shot. He'd have to shoot 50% from restricted area to match that point per shot. We know he doesn't shoot that well, hence he should be shooting more 3s, not less.



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stuckin, I realize what your point was and I think it is trying to put lipstick on a pig. This team doesn't need neilson if all he can do on offense is shoot the three. BYU has PLENTY of guys willing to jack up threes at a 33% clip. What BYU needs is a inside presence to shink the defense and demand some double teams at least so that those 3 point shots are higher percentage.

Problem that I have with Nielson, Andrus and Austin shooting the three is that they generally don't focus on rebounding and banging in the paint which nullifies the advantage of their height. Wiltjer at Gonzaga can shoot the 3 but also has a midrange and inside game to go along with his rebounding. Austin's scoring from 3 pt land has gone down as he focuses on rebounding and finding the outlet perimeter shooters. The others are still learning to use their height and develop an consistently aggressive attitude. Presently, Kafusi and Worthington are the only one's showing this behavior on defense but still lacking offensive skills and rebounding with tenacity.



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