Why the pass?

Let me categorically state that I personally am not troubled by either team, football or basketball or their coaching issues (clock management, getting up at the beginning of big games, etc.) but honestly, why are so many BYU fans willing to give Rose a pass on the same crap for which you loathe Bronco?



* Clock management? Both have issues. Why not foul earlier tonight? 16 seconds run off the clock.

* Getting up for big games? Utah, Gonzaga, both games we dig ourselves a huge hole then try to come back.

* Suspect substitutions? Halford made an immediate impact when he came in tonight. Generally he's not my favorite but clearly Fisher was off. Why not give his minutes to Doby?

* Set plays out of time outs? Seriously with a 5 point deficit we lob to Kaufusi who loses it out of bounds?

* Can't hold leads/win close ones (See UMass, SDSU, Utah, Purdue for B-ball, See UCF, Nevada & Memphis for Football)



Again, I like Rose AND Bronco. I personally feel they do the best they can with what they have. But why do so many others slam Bronco for the same repeated stuff we see with Dave?



Go Cougs!!!

J. Child

Ammon, ID

AmmonCougar1 wrote:
Let me categorically state that I personally am not troubled by either team, football or basketball or their coaching issues (clock management, getting up at the beginning of big games, etc.) but honestly, why are so many BYU fans willing to give Rose a pass on the same crap for which you loathe Bronco?



* Clock management? Both have issues. Why not foul earlier tonight? 16 seconds run off the clock.

* Getting up for big games? Utah, Gonzaga, both games we dig ourselves a huge hole then try to come back.

* Suspect substitutions? Halford made an immediate impact when he came in tonight. Generally he's not my favorite but clearly Fisher was off. Why not give his minutes to Doby?

* Set plays out of time outs? Seriously with a 5 point deficit we lob to Kaufusi who loses it out of bounds?

* Can't hold leads/win close ones (See UMass, SDSU, Utah, Purdue for B-ball, See UCF, Nevada & Memphis for Football)



Again, I like Rose AND Bronco. I personally feel they do the best they can with what they have. But why do so many others slam Bronco for the same repeated stuff we see with Dave?



Go Cougs!!!

J. Child

Ammon, ID

I've wondered the same things concerning Rose and Bronco. Bronco is always made out (even by BYU fans) to be the biggest baffoon on the field. Somehow Rose has avoided the same criticism despite your legitimate concerns stated above.



I also love Rose and Bronco, hope they both stay as long as they would like to. But, I don't understand the double standard.

Because BYU is a football school. Whatever the bb team does is a bonus to most fans.

FWIW, time management issues could also be indicative of a coach who is only watching game films and doesn't take/make time to watch games other than his own in real time. If all you're watching is film, you don't get the feel for time pressure or momentum, and so that game day time pressure and momentum may be a bit foreign for the game-film only coach.

What has Bronco done on a national level? Nothing, but he talks a lot about it.



Rose repeatedly takes BYU to the NCAA tourney. Has gotten BYU to the Sweet 16. He's had a national best player. He's beaten multiple ranked opponents and until these last two seasons has beaten Utah. Rose also hasn't made any mention of winning a national championship so hasn't set or created unrealistic expectations with the fans.



BYU is also a football school.



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Gunk wrote:
What has Bronco done on a national level? Nothing, but he talks a lot about it.



Rose repeatedly takes BYU to the NCAA tourney. Has gotten BYU to the Sweet 16. He's had a national best player. He's beaten multiple ranked opponents and until these last two seasons has beaten Utah. Rose also hasn't made any mention of winning a national championship so hasn't set or created unrealistic expectations with the fans.

:roll: Man, it sure is nice to have a coach who isn't trying to win a national championship, that makes a coach much better and less deserving of criticism. Man, if only Bronco had done things on the national level, like finishing in the top 16...oh wait, he's done that THREE times! If only Bronco had someone who was in contention for player of the year...oh wait, Hill was a strong candidate this year before his injury. If only his rival had been an awful team for the past decade, that would have made him a better coach somehow.



Your statement embodies the pass that Rose has gotten and the double-standards in fans' minds because, yes, BYU is a football school (thank goodness!).

Schmoe, quit being a Schmoe. Rose's resume is just better. Several " almosts" you mention about Bronco.

As well, the biggest difference is that Rose doesn't react to fans with a chip on his shoulder. Rose accomplishes the spiritual mission without jamming it down people's throats. Rose doesn't talk out of both sides of his mouth. He lets his results speak louder than his words. He under promises and at least delivers to that and in some cases over-delivers. Bronco does the opposite. He makes himself an easy target. Rose gets most of his recruits. Bronco does not. And, you want to bag on fans that hold him to his NC expectations/words, but what does Rose do? Doesn't even say " we want a nationally relevant team"

I don't want Bronco to leave. I like him. But to act as though Bronco doesn't do some of this to himself is myopic and bias.

Oh, do Bronco's firesides rub you the wrong way? Or maybe his worse resume, finishing ranked 50% of the time, including in the top 15 30% of the time. Did he hurt your feelings when he was disappointed in being booed by the fans (when have the fans ever booed Rose, even when he's failed to deliver simple things like inbounds plays?). I forgot how Rose got Jabari, or other national-level recruits. Too bad Bronco just takes guys who have never seen the game before and helps make them top-five NFL draft picks (we'll call that one a wash, because of Jimmer). Is Rose's clock management, letting sixteen seconds slip away before fouling when down and the shot clock is off, any better than Bronco's? "Does it to himself"!? Does Bronco make you sad that he WANTS to win a national championship and has that as his goal? Did he PROMISE it to you? Does he owe you one now because he stated it as his goal? Does it make him a worse coach and more deserving of criticism because he's honest with the fans? Do you think you want a championship more than he does? Does Bronco deserve fans like you childishly going after his every move and dissecting his every word in an effort to demean and criticize him? Get over yourself, the only thing either coach owes you is his hard work, which both are giving you. They are very similar in their resumes and results, but for some reason fans like you feel it's okay to tear one down and give the other a pass. It's just pathetic and sad. The double-standard at BYU, and probably most football schools, is obvious; is it really that hard to just admit? It doesn't mean that Rose is a bad coach, it just means we're more critical of football coaches than basketball coaches, because we expect less from basketball thanks to Lavell, and that's okay, let's just admit it.

I'd approach this like Bib and ask if you are related to Bronco, but clearly you are emotionally invested in protecting Bronco rather than trying to understand the component parts to why this dynamic exists.

Why don't you take your Bronco goggles off and see the whole picture. You accuse me of things that are simply not accurate. I said nothing about hating firesides. I like them. I like the ambassadorial role the football team plays. I have been in that role myself and it Has far more upsides than any perceived or arguable downsides.

I'm not offended by Bronco. In fact I have been steady over the last six years in indicating that his citicizing and demeaning fans is going to cost him and it has. It's no wonder he set out to improve his image two seasons ago, bc he was losing that battle.

And it's not just to the fans. And this approach with a more sensitive and entitled sub-group--the boosters and donors doesn't work well either. And believe me, when he mentions NC, the big donors listen and hold TH accountable to that standard. And that further diminishes his brand when he overpromises and underderlivers. Personally, I wish he had toned it down, like he has now. He learned that lesson, I think.

If he failed to know that football was a bigger, more visible, less forgiving endevour, that's on him. But carrying a chip on his shoulder has not helped him.

I think BYU could easily do much worse for a coach. I hope Bronco stays for another five years-to eight years. But is the guy perfect? Not close. IS his position harder than Rose's? Sure. Has Rose taken some heat and criticism? Absolutely. But has he engaged the criticism with attitude and defensiveness? Nope, not much.

One other variable I would add, might be Rose's fight with cancer. I wonder if fans in fact "give him a pass" :roll: --more like a little leniency, bc of his battle with cancer? More compassion? Who knows. I think these two have been a great run for TH and BYU.

And as for comparing Ziggy and Jimmer and calling it a wash? Wow, a little Bronco-goggled overcompensation there? I love Ziggy and he is a great story. But Natioanl PoY vs 1st round pick? Not even close! Oh but wait, maybe you are weighting BBall to be inferior to football and thus the PoY carries less value. :roll:

Rose gets more slack than Bronco because 99% of people don't care as much about basketball as football. Then they make up all sorts of excuses for why.



Going to the NCAA is hardly something to congratulate Rose for. And getting to be the last team in multiple times is essentially the same thing as going to the very worst bowl game in football.



People just accept that BYU will never be elite in basketball, but expect it as the norm in football.

I have never thought of BYU as a football school or for that matter a basketball school. I am a fan of both and love following them in their seasons as well as recruits of both in any season. I am also a track fan and am a wrestling fan even though it's been given the boot. I do not think you have to choose one over any of them.



As far as the coaches go I like them both as well. I don't think either deserve passes all the time any more than any of us do. They do very good things and drop the ball sometimes and should and may even need to be called on things they need to correct or improve on.

nuk13 wrote:
I have never thought of BYU as a football school or for that matter a basketball school. I am a fan of both and love following them in their seasons as well as recruits of both in any season. I am also a track fan and am a wrestling fan even though it's been given the boot. I do not think you have to choose one over any of them.



As far as the coaches go I like them both as well. I don't think either deserve passes all the time any more than any of us do. They do very good things and drop the ball sometimes and should and may even need to be called on things they need to correct or improve on.

I am pretty much in this camp as well. Though I definitely enjoy both football and basketball more, because of BYUtv I have become a fan of women's soccer, volleyball, and basketball as well.



As for the topic at hand, I like both coaches and think they do an excellent job, but when comparing overall success over the course of ten years as head coaches, I give a slight nod to Coach Rose:



BM: .698% overall, 3 worst: .500, .538, .615 (3 times)

DR: .747% overall, 3 worst: .657,.667, .690



I have no problem with high expectations (Quest for Perfection, etc.), but I do think such bold proclamations on the part of Bronco have turned off a segment of the fan base.

hawkwing wrote:
Rose gets more slack than Bronco because 99% of people don't care as much about basketball as football. Then they make up all sorts of excuses for why.



Going to the NCAA is hardly something to congratulate Rose for. And getting to be the last team in multiple times is essentially the same thing as going to the very worst bowl game in football.



People just accept that BYU will never be elite in basketball, but expect it as the norm in football.

There are 128 FCS teams and 39 bowls plus the play off games. Meaning 82 out of 128 teams (64%) of FCS teams will make a bowl. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014%E2%80%9315_NCAA_football_bowl_games



There are 346 D1 basketball teams eligible for the NCAA tournament. Of those teams, only 68 make (20%) the NCAA tournament.



Making a bowl game is no where near the same level of accomplishment as making the NCAA tournament. Problem is Rose does it so often the magnitude of his accomplishment is lost. 12 years or so ago there was dancing in the streets when BYU made the NCAA tournament. Now, there are all sorts of moanings when BYU doesn't make the tournament.



Making it to the Sweet 16 is something just 4.6% of teams do in basketball. That would be the equivalent of finishing as the 6th ranked team in football; something Bronco has never done.



I like both coaches and think we are lucky to have both. I think you're onto something as far as expectations for football being too high.

Actually, both FBS and FCS teams are eligible for the polls, so there are 252 teams, making 4.6% the equivalent of finishing 12th, which Bronco has done.



Also, just for fun, since basketball fans always like to use the number of useless, crap, bottom-feeder teams to skew the numbers, if you used the 252 number for bowls, it gives us 32.54%. Not quite the 20% for the big dance, but better than simply making the post-season (NIT, CBI, etc.), which has happened to Rose several times.



Also, that means that finishing ranked (Bronco's done it five times) puts you in the top 10% of football teams, which is the equivalent of getting out of the first round in the big dance (Rose has done it twice).



Again, so many parallels, such similar coaches.

Schmoe wrote:
Actually, both FBS and FCS teams are eligible for the polls, so there are 252 teams, making 4.6% the equivalent of finishing 12th, which Bronco has done.



Also, just for fun, since basketball fans always like to use the number of useless, crap, bottom-feeder teams to skew the numbers, if you used the 252 number for bowls, it gives us 32.54%. Not quite the 20% for the big dance, but better than simply making the post-season (NIT, CBI, etc.), which has happened to Rose several times.



Also, that means that finishing ranked (Bronco's done it five times) puts you in the top 10% of football teams, which is the equivalent of getting out of the first round in the big dance (Rose has done it twice).



Again, so many parallels, such similar coaches.

CBI Never, NIT 2 times, NCAA Tournament 7 times.

Wolverine wrote:

Actually, both FBS and FCS teams are eligible for the polls, so there are 252 teams, making 4.6% the equivalent of finishing 12th, which Bronco has done.



Also, just for fun, since basketball fans always like to use the number of useless, crap, bottom-feeder teams to skew the numbers, if you used the 252 number for bowls, it gives us 32.54%. Not quite the 20% for the big dance, but better than simply making the post-season (NIT, CBI, etc.), which has happened to Rose several times.



Also, that means that finishing ranked (Bronco's done it five times) puts you in the top 10% of football teams, which is the equivalent of getting out of the first round in the big dance (Rose has done it twice).



Again, so many parallels, such similar coaches.

CBI Never, NIT 2 times, NCAA Tournament 7 times.

And if I recall correctly, the record for most consecutive times BYU has made it to the NCAA tournament and there only a half dozen or schools that have made more consecutive trips to tourney than BYU.



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Gunk wrote:

Schmoe wrote:
Actually, both FBS and FCS teams are eligible for the polls, so there are 252 teams, making 4.6% the equivalent of finishing 12th, which Bronco has done.



Also, just for fun, since basketball fans always like to use the number of useless, crap, bottom-feeder teams to skew the numbers, if you used the 252 number for bowls, it gives us 32.54%. Not quite the 20% for the big dance, but better than simply making the post-season (NIT, CBI, etc.), which has happened to Rose several times.



Also, that means that finishing ranked (Bronco's done it five times) puts you in the top 10% of football teams, which is the equivalent of getting out of the first round in the big dance (Rose has done it twice).



Again, so many parallels, such similar coaches.

CBI Never, NIT 2 times, NCAA Tournament 7 times.

And if I recall correctly, the record for most consecutive times BYU has made it to the NCAA tournament and there only a half dozen or schools that have made more consecutive trips to tourney than BYU.



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Just like Bronco going to ten straight bowl games, with only seven other coaches having done the same or better? Another interesting parallel between our two coaches.

Some interesting comments here. The BYU I attended as an undergraduate was most definitely a Basketball school - but by the time I was finished had become much more of a Football school.



Maybe the questions should be asked the other way around. I like all of the positive things pointed out about both coaches by some posts. Instead of "Why does coach Rose get a pass?", maybe it should be "Why don't both coaches get credit for amazing records at BYU?"



The point is that all coaches at all schools come short of fans expectations pretty much all of the time. If a coach wins a national championship and only makes the finals the next year, the fans are upset.



I'm enjoying the play of the team right now, and I'm hoping that the early-season difficulties in closing out games will become learning experiences for better results later in the season.

Mars wrote:


playing in the SEC.

There's the key to Alabama's success.