Is it ever good enough?

Does anyone take accountability for their preseason predictions and assessments?



Many said this may be a 15 win team at best



Some said "I don't expect Kyle Collinsworth will play next year" and one said "I'm not sure we EVER see KC play again in a BYU uni"



Many had written off the Stanford game because Tyler wasn't supposed to play



Most didn't expect to beat anyone of importance in the Maui invitational because we wouldn't have Aytes ready



No one anticipated Utah would be this good, especially without Loveridge



I won't say names, but a lot of people piled on Collinsworth last year that are now looking silly...



Yet here we are an injured Tyler Haws, an injured Nate Austin, a healthy Kyle Collinsworth, no Jamal Aytes and a shiny 9-3 record where we were extremely competitive in our 3 losses... and probably should have won 2 of them



I don't know when this board will just be happy with a win against a decent team....



Our hoops team this year has some serious flaws, we have zero low post scoring, we don't rebound terribly well, and we can't guard the perimeter, but we're 9-3, have a top 50 RPI and have been competitive in every game we've played. I don't know if we'll end up NCAA tourney worthy, but we're a good team that should be enjoyed. Sometimes I think it's okay to just be good. Enjoy this good team, maybe we've been spoiled in the past, but this is the team we have... no true point, no go to post man... and we're good. Good enough to beat most teams on a given night and certainly good enough to give most teams a good game... fine with me. I'm glad we won, I'm glad we still have the possibility of an at large seed. I'm happy we beat Stanford.



I think based on preseason assumptions by many if not most on this board, we should all be very happy with how this season has gone. It has exceeded everyone's expectations... so why are we getting greedy?



Who here expected better than 9-3 at this point? answer: NO ONE



KC wasn't going to be this good this soon after his injury, Aytes wouldn't be playing until this week anyhow, I doubt anyone thought Winder would be this good (at least no one was crowing about his lack of playing time before the season)... We beat Stanford with Corbin Kaufusi (an RM walkon) Isaac Nielsen and Luke Worthington playing the 4-5... it's a minor miracle we won if you consider the preseason expectations for these players... yet here we are 9-3 and certainly still on the bubble to dance... not bad .. not bad at all

Well said. Well said. This team IS fun to watch and follow.

I think people were conceding this game when Haws went out because Stanford is a very good team. Haws played and made a difference, difference enough to win. I enjoyed it and admire this team even with all their weaknesses that get pointed out whether they win or lose.

This year has gone much better than I expected and I'm glad for it!

Craig, you are right about your sentiment and a number of your points. But there is only one hater and the dude who follows him and both have been the most vocal about bashing KC. He may not be a "true point guard" but he was breaking down the D last night better than any other player on this team. He was just short of a second triple double and this type of play, if his knee can hold up and and pass physicals, may end up getting himself drafted or at least a lot of looks. And Haws, what a surprize he turned out to be yesterday. BYU would have been beaten soundly without him. He did get a little cold as the game went on, but he hit some amazing shots. Yes, we are woefully absent any post scoring, except for what KC can do and an occasionally, one-hit wonder, baby hook by hustle boy, Luke, but the big four are pretty fun to watch.

I, myself, thought they would be right where they are, but didn't necessarily see them getting to where they are the way they did.

BYU has gone from a certain NIT, to another shot at the big dance. If they beat UMass, they have two quality wins and no bad losses-yet.

But a lot of vulnerabilities. No bigs scoring, KC's knee--he was hobbling again during the game, Haws' ankle, and Austin's hammy, which could be chronic, and a potential over reliance on Haws and KC, which can create fatigue over the season,

Why the greed? I'm just tired of the moral victory known as BYU basketball.



I saw this season as clear step up in regards to returning players. But it's been the same story. Close games and moral victories. BYU had SDSU in the bag (SDSU isn't all they're cracked up to be BTW), took purdue (who is the worst loss so far) to overtime and stumbled against utah. Win 2 of those three games and BYU is pretty much a lock in the tournament at this point. Stanford hasn't beaten anyone of significance... yet. UMASS should be a W, they are a bad road team and already are batting just over .500. Gonzaga will beat us at least 2 times this year.



As it stands, instead of being a top 15 program, BYU has settled into their usual 35-60 spot in the rankings. This won't change much with WCC play starting.



To answer your question. It will be good enough when BYU stops finding ways to lose games and starts finding ways to beat quality programs. Tall task, but it is what I expect of a talent laden team with a lot of upperclassmen.



If you're content with close games and wins against teams with RPI >60, you're easier to please than myself.

Cougs_Rule wrote:
He may not be a "true point guard" but he was breaking down the D last night better than any other player on this team. He was just short of a second triple double and this type of play, if his knee can hold up and and pass physicals, may end up getting himself drafted or at least a lot of looks.

KC does not need to be playing the point guard position to "break down the D". Nor does he need to play the point guard position to get triple doubles. I think KC's work he has done as PG has been commendable. But BYU would be a better team with a real point guard who can handle a full court press like SDSU's or Stanford's, has marginally better handles and could take the load off an already stressed out KC knee.

And it would be a better team with better bigs. What's your purpose in contonuning to whine? That's Craig's point exactly. If you are going to continue to be a malcontent watching two potential BYU hall of famers, so be it. quite frankly I am glad Rose has made the decision he has, who else did he have to develop? Notwithstanding Anson's overall strong game, and huge free throws, he showed some of his former self in a few ugly ways that also almost cost the game. KC would not have as many assists if he wasn't the PG. He is a special player, a very tough matchup for teams, especially at the point.

Truth is, it wasn't just BYU making bone headed plays. SDSU And Stanford made some great plays as well. Veteran coaches with some very athletic kids mixed with some reffing that allowed a ton of contact (#5 on one of his steals). So, yeah, an imperfect team and an imperfect coach--when is it ever good enough?

BYU women's bball, played almost out of their heads vs Texas but looked good, but not great vs PSU--it could even be argued that they played not even close to their potential. The girl who got them there, the once in a lifetime 6'7" Hamson, the veteran, the WNBA drafted, almost freak of nature, made huge mistakes in the final and yet was also the only one to do much, beyond Boswell, who had a few quick-set spikes and a few blocks. But BYU got soundly beat by the better team. It happens. Rose had cancer and is dang fortunate to still be coaching let alone alive. Masquing your discontent with some intellectualized sense of "what's wrong with wanting perfection" is just missing the boat.

Hamson a once a lifetime player? Could be but her younger sister is 6'8" and I am hoping she follows in her sister's footsteps.

I'll agree to disagree cougs_rule.



if BYU has two future hall of famers and is still on the bubble, I'm not satisfied. I like this team, some of the habits that are evident with BYU basketball don't sit as well with me. a little more discipline, a little more defense and this team with its two "hall of famers" is ranked in the top 15. I don't know why that is considered greedy.



I'd bet most of the players are feeling some of the same.



and I expect no where close to perfection. but a team like BYU is not going to do well when making terrible decisions like being up 5 points with one minute left and taking a shot with 48 seconds left. bullet dodged though. I am quite satisfied with the FT shooting improvement this year. huge improvement. those are the types of things BYU can control RIGHT NOW and will need to in order to compete with the more athletic and stronger teams.

BroncoBot wrote:
Why the greed? I'm just tired of the moral victory known as BYU basketball.



I saw this season as clear step up in regards to returning players. But it's been the same story. Close games and moral victories. BYU had SDSU in the bag (SDSU isn't all they're cracked up to be BTW), took purdue (who is the worst loss so far) to overtime and stumbled against utah. Win 2 of those three games and BYU is pretty much a lock in the tournament at this point. Stanford hasn't beaten anyone of significance... yet. UMASS should be a W, they are a bad road team and already are batting just over .500. Gonzaga will beat us at least 2 times this year.



As it stands, instead of being a top 15 program, BYU has settled into their usual 35-60 spot in the rankings. This won't change much with WCC play starting.



To answer your question. It will be good enough when BYU stops finding ways to lose games and starts finding ways to beat quality programs. Tall task, but it is what I expect of a talent laden team with a lot of upperclassmen.



If you're content with close games and wins against teams with RPI >60, you're easier to please than myself.

would you feel a lot better if we were 10-2? or if we had beaten Pitt but lost to either lbsu or eky? (teams that have given top 10 teams fits (lbsu is young, flawed, but insanely athletic team and played sdsu within 1, and led texas late in their game and beat a pretty good kstate team) (eky just steamrolled #16 miami by nearly 30)...



We're beating the teams we're supposed to and we've been within one bad call by a ref or a couple free throws from being ranked ourselves... which is pure insanity consider how bad we are down low... we're really bad... terrible. We have no big men with a single post move, yet we're 9-3.



This was a season where I said above many had very low expectations.. I usually predict a tourney invite and did so last year when almost all did not.. this year I expected NIT and we're almost through the non-con and we have not yet eliminated ourselves from a tourney invite. I think that's incredible..



9-3 is not mediocre, and it's not average, it's great for this team..



yes we have kc yes we have tyler... but our front line is BROKEN... BROKEN ... BROKEN



If somehow Eric Mika had stuck around I do think we're be in the top 20 and have 1-2 losses... but we have 3 losses without him and a broken frontline... I'll take it



Our talent is just not there as a whole... yet we have depth and we have a couple very special players that are willing us to a very good record, in spite of our flaws

Thanks Craig. Byu's done great with what they have. I wish Rose would put some time in on working and recruiting big kids. We have some good ones and more coming so I hope some work is put in to get them up to speed soon.

craigoscarson wrote:



would you feel a lot better if we were 10-2? or if we had beaten Pitt but lost to either lbsu or eky? (teams that have given top 10 teams fits (lbsu is young, flawed, but insanely athletic team and played sdsu within 1, and led texas late in their game and beat a pretty good kstate team) (eky just steamrolled #16 miami by nearly 30)...



We're beating the teams we're supposed to and we've been within one bad call by a ref or a couple free throws from being ranked ourselves... which is pure insanity consider how bad we are down low... we're really bad... terrible. We have no big men with a single post move, yet we're 9-3.



This was a season where I said above many had very low expectations.. I usually predict a tourney invite and did so last year when almost all did not.. this year I expected NIT and we're almost through the non-con and we have not yet eliminated ourselves from a tourney invite. I think that's incredible..



9-3 is not mediocre, and it's not average, it's great for this team..



yes we have kc yes we have tyler... but our front line is BROKEN... BROKEN ... BROKEN



If somehow Eric Mika had stuck around I do think we're be in the top 20 and have 1-2 losses... but we have 3 losses without him and a broken frontline... I'll take it



Our talent is just not there as a whole... yet we have depth and we have a couple very special players that are willing us to a very good record, in spite of our flaws

Again, this is all great, but let's face it, BYU had a shot at doing something special the first 12 games of this year. And they blew some leads they had no business blowing, and lost to a purdue team that is less than average. So I'll answer your other questions... I'd feel OK about losing the utah game and being 11-1 currently. EK and LBSU were good wins, I'll give them that, but they were games BYU should have won.



But, I will give you that the frontcourt is disastrous this year.



Season's not over, lot of basketball to play. Would still love to get to the tournament and make some noise.

BroncoBot wrote:

would you feel a lot better if we were 10-2? or if we had beaten Pitt but lost to either lbsu or eky? (teams that have given top 10 teams fits (lbsu is young, flawed, but insanely athletic team and played sdsu within 1, and led texas late in their game and beat a pretty good kstate team) (eky just steamrolled #16 miami by nearly 30)...



We're beating the teams we're supposed to and we've been within one bad call by a ref or a couple free throws from being ranked ourselves... which is pure insanity consider how bad we are down low... we're really bad... terrible. We have no big men with a single post move, yet we're 9-3.



This was a season where I said above many had very low expectations.. I usually predict a tourney invite and did so last year when almost all did not.. this year I expected NIT and we're almost through the non-con and we have not yet eliminated ourselves from a tourney invite. I think that's incredible..



9-3 is not mediocre, and it's not average, it's great for this team..



yes we have kc yes we have tyler... but our front line is BROKEN... BROKEN ... BROKEN



If somehow Eric Mika had stuck around I do think we're be in the top 20 and have 1-2 losses... but we have 3 losses without him and a broken frontline... I'll take it



Our talent is just not there as a whole... yet we have depth and we have a couple very special players that are willing us to a very good record, in spite of our flaws

Again, this is all great, but let's face it, BYU had a shot at doing something special the first 12 games of this year. And they blew some leads they had no business blowing, and lost to a purdue team that is less than average. So I'll answer your other questions... I'd feel OK about losing the utah game and being 11-1 currently. EK and LBSU were good wins, I'll give them that, but they were games BYU should have won.



But, I will give you that the frontcourt is disastrous this year.



Season's not over, lot of basketball to play. Would still love to get to the tournament and make some noise.

11-1 with a loss to Utah means BYU would have won the Maui Classic. I think Arizona would have had something to say about that.

Wolverine wrote:

craigoscarson wrote:



would you feel a lot better if we were 10-2? or if we had beaten Pitt but lost to either lbsu or eky? (teams that have given top 10 teams fits (lbsu is young, flawed, but insanely athletic team and played sdsu within 1, and led texas late in their game and beat a pretty good kstate team) (eky just steamrolled #16 miami by nearly 30)...



We're beating the teams we're supposed to and we've been within one bad call by a ref or a couple free throws from being ranked ourselves... which is pure insanity consider how bad we are down low... we're really bad... terrible. We have no big men with a single post move, yet we're 9-3.



This was a season where I said above many had very low expectations.. I usually predict a tourney invite and did so last year when almost all did not.. this year I expected NIT and we're almost through the non-con and we have not yet eliminated ourselves from a tourney invite. I think that's incredible..



9-3 is not mediocre, and it's not average, it's great for this team..



yes we have kc yes we have tyler... but our front line is BROKEN... BROKEN ... BROKEN



If somehow Eric Mika had stuck around I do think we're be in the top 20 and have 1-2 losses... but we have 3 losses without him and a broken frontline... I'll take it



Our talent is just not there as a whole... yet we have depth and we have a couple very special players that are willing us to a very good record, in spite of our flaws

Again, this is all great, but let's face it, BYU had a shot at doing something special the first 12 games of this year. And they blew some leads they had no business blowing, and lost to a purdue team that is less than average. So I'll answer your other questions... I'd feel OK about losing the utah game and being 11-1 currently. EK and LBSU were good wins, I'll give them that, but they were games BYU should have won.



But, I will give you that the frontcourt is disastrous this year.



Season's not over, lot of basketball to play. Would still love to get to the tournament and make some noise.

11-1 with a loss to Utah means BYU would have won the Maui Classic. I think Arizona would have had something to say about that.

And... I would have been fine with a loss to AZ. UNLESS, that is, BYU blew a 5 point overtime lead with 50 seconds left. That I still would find unacceptable.

This really has nothing to do with anyone's comments on here per se, but why is it that losing team's fans never give the opposing team credit for pulling out a win when down by 5 in the last minute or so? Why does it always have to be "our team blew it"? Just wondering :) Merry Christmas to all and here's to 2 wins this week and no knock down brawls :)

I will agree, all things considered BYU is performing at a high level. The there have been no blowout losses, which I mark up as a win. The big men need to develop, plain and simple. They are showing flashes of potential (especially Kaufusi on D and Nielsen on offense) and once they develop over the season they could very well make a run in the post season (probably as an at large). Coaching has been fairly good to this point although coach Rose should probably settle on a 9 man rotation with Kaufusi, Nielsen, Winder and Aytes getting the minutes. I'm sorry but Halford should not see the court, I was surprised to see him guarding Randle in the Stanford game. Maybe Coach Rose sees something that I don't?



Anyways, I guess the point of my ramblings is that BYU right now has a good team but their post-season success will depend squarely on the development of their bigs as the season progresses.

I don't think anyone is necessarily upset with our current record. This seems like a "I was right, admit you were wrong post" not a "oh hey, this team is alright" post.



Fine, I admit the team is exceeding my expectations. There. People happy now?



Course, I based my expectations on KC taking a lot longer to get back into competitive condition and you can't really fault me for that. KC's recovery is nothing short of miraculous as was Haws returning so quickly to play Stanford. It's taken KC playing at a miraculous level to get us where we are today. Without KC, we would be looking at a .500 record.



I expected issues down low and we do have major issues down low, even Rose can back me up on that. We've added more "depth" down low but it's just substituting one ineffective post player in for another.



We are one bad landing, one retwisted knee away from the season being a wash.



Regarding KC at PG. He isn't a PG. If he plays professionally it won't be as a PG. He can't shoot and his post up moves are limited so the PG position makes sense for him given his average handles. KC does not split defenders off the dribble. He is not a razzle dazzle, shake 'n bake PG. He uses his larger body very effectively at shielding the ball and bumping smaller defenders off him. The best off the dribble handler we have is Winder - now that guy can split defenders.



That said, KC is a phenomenal player. We are lucky to have him and the success of the team is riding on that surgically repaired knee of his.



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Wolverine wrote:
This really has nothing to do with anyone's comments on here per se, but why is it that losing team's fans never give the opposing team credit for pulling out a win when down by 5 in the last minute or so? Why does it always have to be "our team blew it"? Just wondering :) Merry Christmas to all and here's to 2 wins this week and no knock down brawls :)

Probably because losing in that scenario is not a result of one team playing wel. Both teams contribute and the team that eventually loses has to have turnovers, missed FTs, giving up offensive rebounds. It's not just that one team played well, the leading team had to basically give up a few points which of course is what fans will focus on when they lose.



Go back and watch Gonzaga lose in the huntsman center with Morrison. Classic meltdown that wasn't really about about how well UCLA played, but how bad Gonzaga closed that game.

It was good enough today even though Haws on the sore ankle only got 4 pts. Thanks Winder!