The Downside of Independence

I was just thinking about something that Gary Crowton told us about the end of the 2001 football season when he came as a guest speaker to our Coaching Football class in Winter of 2002 semester. He said they had traveled more miles than any other team, and when it came to those last two games, the players were just exhausted. He didn't pin it on Staley's injury, though I'm sure that hurt.



I'm starting to wonder if the stat I keep hearing ESPN announcers say every week, "BYU has traveled the most miles of any team this year..." is actually going to be a detriment year in and year out. We have seen the overall health of the team decline. How long does it take before exhaustion sets in?



Conversely, if you look at teams in the SEC, PAC 12, Big 10, etc. they do not have to travel very far at all. As such, their team health is better as their bodies are much fresher for the games. Of course the upside to all of BYU's travel is that I get to see BYU in person almost every year when they come close to the south. :D

I do believe the travel is both a blessing and a curse.



Blessing: spread the BYU/Mormon message further, interact with more fans, fans who bring their non-member football fan friends too. Recruiting is also benefited by getting into the home locations of recruits that we would otherwise rarely be in their region.



Curse: Traveling is hard. Just the travel itself can be exhausting, the changes in timezone and sleeping habits. Weather conditions are far outside of normal. School work suffers. Tough challenges to deal with.

Other than Bowl Games and playoffs, football should be a regional sport with very few exceptions. There are several things going on in addition to this that tire a team out and should be pondered.



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IMO, independence really isn't working out for us and with the way we keep shooting ourselves in the foot the Big 12 (with only 10 teams) isn't going to be calling us anytime soon. The negatives are out weighing the positives.



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Gunk wrote:
IMO, independence really isn't working out for us and with the way we keep shooting ourselves in the foot the Big 12 (with only 10 teams) isn't going to be calling us anytime soon. The negatives are out weighing the positives.



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You think we'd be better off in the MWC?

hawkwing wrote:

IMO, independence really isn't working out for us and with the way we keep shooting ourselves in the foot the Big 12 (with only 10 teams) isn't going to be calling us anytime soon. The negatives are out weighing the positives.



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You think we'd be better off in the MWC?

Nope. 0-3

nickdutson wrote:

Gunk wrote:
IMO, independence really isn't working out for us and with the way we keep shooting ourselves in the foot the Big 12 (with only 10 teams) isn't going to be calling us anytime soon. The negatives are out weighing the positives.



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You think we'd be better off in the MWC?

Nope. 0-3

And we'd have less money, and be on TV less, and not be able to play replays of our great victories over the past few years (although there are not as many of those as we'd like)

hawkwing wrote:
You think we'd be better off in the MWC?

I would actually be excited if TH announced this week that BYU was joining the American as part of a West division expansion - with Boise St., Air Force, UNLV, SDSU, and Colorado St.



If BYU re-joined the MWC, you would need some sort of eastward expansion to get any excitement.

hawkwing wrote:

IMO, independence really isn't working out for us and with the way we keep shooting ourselves in the foot the Big 12 (with only 10 teams) isn't going to be calling us anytime soon. The negatives are out weighing the positives.



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You think we'd be better off in the MWC?

What are the primary objectives of BYU football? Exposure and revenue.



Winning gets us exposure. Winning gets us revenue. So while everyone talks about exposure and revenue, the real priority is winning. Winning puts fans in the stadium, sales merchandise, gets you on TV, gets you into big time bowls and gets people talking about you.



BYU isn't winning. No championships to go after. One loss or 6 and it's off to the Whatever Bowl, lost in irrelevancy.



Would rejoining the MWC put us in the best position to win. Probably. Not sure we could hang in the Big 12.



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Reality check. We were 3rd best in the MWC before Boise State joined. Would have become 4th best. Utah, TCU, and BYU left, creating a vacuum. Now Nevada, USU, and occasionally others like SDSU have risen up.



Our performance has nothing to do with conference VA independence. It has more to do with SOS and the ups and downs of experience and talent from year to year.



We recruit around the median of D1 and usually perform better than that. Unfortunately, this year, injuries and an inexperienced DC have us playing at or below 60th do far, and worse lately.



When we start consistently recruiting better, BYU will rise up.



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Cougarbib wrote:
Reality check. We were 3rd best in the MWC before Boise State joined. Would have become 4th best. Utah, TCU, and BYU left, creating a vacuum. Now Nevada, USU, and occasionally others like SDSU have risen up.



Our performance has nothing to do with conference VA independence. It has more to do with SOS and the ups and downs of experience and talent from year to year.



We recruit around the median of D1 and usually perform better than that. Unfortunately, this year, injuries and an inexperienced DC have us playing at or below 60th do far, and worse lately.



When we start consistently recruiting better, BYU will rise up.



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Bib, I think that it is very obvious that if BYU starts recruiting better that the results on the field will improve. I have no idea what the answer is to this question, but would be interested in hearing your opinion as well as those of others....What is the key to improving recruiting? I am in the "glass is half-empty camp" when it comes to recruiting these days. BYU is in "no-man's land", "stuck between a rock and a hard place" when it comes to recruiting. I don't mind Independence, but I am definitely not in love with it either. I am "old school" in that I like conferences, conference championships, rivalry games, etc. I have been at every home game the past 3 seasons and cheer for the Cougars like crazy, but there is a void deep inside at this point in time. A test of faith? Maybe, but I will soldier on. Go Cougars! :)

Recruiting isn't going to get better. Hanging your hopes on recruiting is an exercise in futility. BYU will get the guys it gets. It comes down to scheme (coaching) and scheduling.



There are significant advantages to playing the same teams year in and year out - more familiarity and more focused prep. We play just a handful of the same teams each year.



For fans and players, it's fun to compete for something. It's nice to have bragging rights. What bragging rights do we have? None. We aren't playing for anything now. No one cares about the Miami whatever bowl and no one will remember if we lost or won it.



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Gunk wrote:
Recruiting isn't going to get better. Hanging your hopes on recruiting is an exercise in futility. BYU will get the guys it gets. It comes down to scheme (coaching) and scheduling.



There are significant advantages to playing the same teams year in and year out - more familiarity and more focused prep. We play just a handful of the same teams each year.



For fans and players, it's fun to compete for something. It's nice to have bragging rights. What bragging rights do we have? None. We aren't playing for anything now. No one cares about the Miami whatever bowl and no one will remember if we lost or won it.



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Serious question - Without googling, do you know how many years we won the Mountain West Conference Championship? WAC Championship? Do you have any idea how many " BYU: MWC Champ" shirt, hats, banners, pins, etc have ever been sold? I'm guessing not many. Is the Miami Beach bowl really lesser of a reward than Vegas?



I hear the "something to play for" argument, and I really don't get it... we're talking about sports. Millions of people play sports knowing that they aren't playing for a championship, and they give it their all every game for the love of sport. That's why the Boston Marathon has a limit of runners than can race. And not a single runner of the overwhelming majority of runners quit running when they are not in the lead pace group, they finish the race as hard as they can, because that's what athletes do. And if fans can't appreciate the competition for the sake of competition, then trying to artificially enhance the experience by calling something less than the overall champion a "conference" champion is a crutch.

As a BYU fan, I have always cared most about our final ranking and beating teams from major conferences. All of that is still in play as an independent.



Being a ranked independent is better than being an unranked MWC champion.

ABYUFAN wrote:

Recruiting isn't going to get better. Hanging your hopes on recruiting is an exercise in futility. BYU will get the guys it gets. It comes down to scheme (coaching) and scheduling.



There are significant advantages to playing the same teams year in and year out - more familiarity and more focused prep. We play just a handful of the same teams each year.



For fans and players, it's fun to compete for something. It's nice to have bragging rights. What bragging rights do we have? None. We aren't playing for anything now. No one cares about the Miami whatever bowl and no one will remember if we lost or won it.



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Serious question - Without googling, do you know how many years we won the Mountain West Conference Championship? WAC Championship? Do you have any idea how many " BYU: MWC Champ" shirt, hats, banners, pins, etc have ever been sold? I'm guessing not many. Is the Miami Beach bowl really lesser of a reward than Vegas?



I hear the "something to play for argument, and I really don't get it... we're talking about sports. Millions of people play sports knowing that they aren't playing for a championship, and they give it their all every game for the love of sport. That's why the Boston Marathon has a limit of runners than can race. And not a single runner of the overwhelming majority of runners quit running when they are not in the lead pace group, they finish the race as hard as they can, because that's what athletes do. And if fans can't appreciate the competition for the sake of competition, then trying to artificially enhance the experience by calling something less than the overall champion a "conference" champion is a crutch.

Not sure I like your Boston Marathon example. Other than the top 20-30 or so men and women (who are running to WIN the race along with winning it's prize money and title of Boston Marathon Champion. Nothing artificial about that to the winner), the other 20,000 + runners are merely running for the sake of the experience of running in the Boston Marathon itself. Do the others try hard? Heck, just making it 26.2 miles requires effort. They all tried hard to qualify because that is what you have to do to be able to run Boston, qualify. Independence to me feels like BYU is merely "experiencing" the college football season. Just my opinion :)

Independence is not perfect. The MWC was far from perfect and now it ain't even what is used to be. That is our world. That and the AAC. We augment that by jet lagging all over the country and giving up home field to elite programs and then filling the gap that leaves in the home schedule with lower division team. It all works out about the same. We could not beat Utah and TCU consistently. Now we cannot beat BSU consistently. Nothing has changed.



I am embarrassed to admit this, but after the WAC gave it's best to the MWC, and then the MWC added TCU, BYU was no longer the lead dog. Now BSU is lead dog. BYU did not get worse. Utah, TCU, and BSU rose up while BYU held still.



BYU has a big year every now and again. But, ever since the competition got better about 13-15 years ago, those have become fewer in MWC or as an independent.



Pop the BYU record the last 15 years right here and other than the end of Beck followed by Hall, not much.



Name the last 3 MWC Championships for BYU without looking it up. Back when BYU won the WAC and MWC most years, there was rarely more than 1 other contender and some years there were none. That is what changed.



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Wolverine wrote:

Gunk wrote:
Recruiting isn't going to get better. Hanging your hopes on recruiting is an exercise in futility. BYU will get the guys it gets. It comes down to scheme (coaching) and scheduling.



There are significant advantages to playing the same teams year in and year out - more familiarity and more focused prep. We play just a handful of the same teams each year.



For fans and players, it's fun to compete for something. It's nice to have bragging rights. What bragging rights do we have? None. We aren't playing for anything now. No one cares about the Miami whatever bowl and no one will remember if we lost or won it.



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Serious question - Without googling, do you know how many years we won the Mountain West Conference Championship? WAC Championship? Do you have any idea how many " BYU: MWC Champ" shirt, hats, banners, pins, etc have ever been sold? I'm guessing not many. Is the Miami Beach bowl really lesser of a reward than Vegas?



I hear the "something to play for argument, and I really don't get it... we're talking about sports. Millions of people play sports knowing that they aren't playing for a championship, and they give it their all every game for the love of sport. That's why the Boston Marathon has a limit of runners than can race. And not a single runner of the overwhelming majority of runners quit running when they are not in the lead pace group, they finish the race as hard as they can, because that's what athletes do. And if fans can't appreciate the competition for the sake of competition, then trying to artificially enhance the experience by calling something less than the overall champion a "conference" champion is a crutch.

Not sure I like your Boston Marathon example. Other than the top 20-30 or so men and women (who are running to WIN the race along with winning it's prize money and title of Boston Marathon Champion. Nothing artificial about that to the winner), the other 20,000 + runners are merely running for the sake of the experience of running in the Boston Marathon itself. Do the others try hard? Heck, just making it 26.2 miles requires effort. They all tried hard to qualify because that is what you have to do to be able to run Boston, qualify. Independence to me feels like BYU is merely "experiencing" the college football season. Just my opinion :)

The Boston Marathon is one big party experience, and even the people who don't win the race go home happy and accomplished, and the spectators generally go home enriched from the fun experience as well. If College football isn't like the Boston Marathon, then perhaps it should be. It's sport. It's entertainment, and it should be used to have a great experience, and then to go home afterward having enjoyed the event, not go home afterward and have one's happiness live or die by the scoreboard alone, irrespective of what actually transpired on the field.

1999 was a 3 way tie with Utah and CSU. I bet that had fans dancing in the streets and glued to their seats - at least the ones that were not yawning. Wait. That was when fans were calling for LaVell Edwards to retire and send Norm Chow packing.



BYU won it outright in 2001 under Crowton, and 2006, and 2007 under Bronco. That is it. If BYU stayed in the MWC, TCU won it in 2011 and would have beaten out our weak 10-3 team that year, but then it became a 2012 BSU/SDSU/FSU shared crown followed by 2013 Fresno State. I doubt that the MWC scenario would have made fans any happier, even if we snagged a share of a 4 way crown in 2012, and a split crown last year with an 8-4 or 8-5 final record counting OOC and Bowls.



I do miss the Las Vegas Bowl. Proximity. PAC opponents.



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ABYUFAN wrote:

Recruiting isn't going to get better. Hanging your hopes on recruiting is an exercise in futility. BYU will get the guys it gets. It comes down to scheme (coaching) and scheduling.



There are significant advantages to playing the same teams year in and year out - more familiarity and more focused prep. We play just a handful of the same teams each year.



For fans and players, it's fun to compete for something. It's nice to have bragging rights. What bragging rights do we have? None. We aren't playing for anything now. No one cares about the Miami whatever bowl and no one will remember if we lost or won it.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

Serious question - Without googling, do you know how many years we won the Mountain West Conference Championship? WAC Championship? Do you have any idea how many " BYU: MWC Champ" shirt, hats, banners, pins, etc have ever been sold? I'm guessing not many. Is the Miami Beach bowl really lesser of a reward than Vegas?



I hear the "something to play for" argument, and I really don't get it... we're talking about sports. Millions of people play sports knowing that they aren't playing for a championship, and they give it their all every game for the love of sport. That's why the Boston Marathon has a limit of runners than can race. And not a single runner of the overwhelming majority of runners quit running when they are not in the lead pace group, they finish the race as hard as they can, because that's what athletes do. And if fans can't appreciate the competition for the sake of competition, then trying to artificially enhance the experience by calling something less than the overall champion a "conference" champion is a crutch.

The point is we won it and we were contenders to win it each season. There was something to play for. As it stands now, the outcome of a BYU season is already known before the season is played.



As someone that ran competitively, the race is a lot more fun, entertaining, and better when you're running for 1st place. I never actually won a race, but I always tried. That chance to win, to be first meant something and if you ask the runner that came in 98th at the Boston Marathon, they'd tell you the same thing. They weren't running to run it.



Do you want BYU running for running's sake or do you want BYU running to win it? Right now, there's nothing to win. So all we're doing is running to run it.

Does not compute. You got all excited to take 1st place in each race. Marathoners get excited to take 1st place in 1 marathon. How I'd that any different than getting excited to win 1 football game at a time?



I have known several BYU football players over the years. WAC days. MWC days. Now Independent. The current players are every bit as excited and motivated. And, this team, this year, rebuilding the DL, linebackers, and secondary with a great kicker to replace, and punt returner to replace, could only mask that so long with the offense compensating for all that. Heisman QB gone, JW injured, Hine and Brown. Even the MWC would have exposed that, wait........the MWC did expose that. The season inside a conference is usually over after the 2nd or 3rd conference loss, BTW.



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