Archived Topic

QB Injuries Myths

by Cougarbib · 10/7/2014

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Cougarbib
Several posters think a trip back to the good old days of pocket passing QBs, would dramatically reduce injuries to starting quarterbacks. I agree that it would reduce risk. I also think we would lose something on the reward side of the equation.



DRAMATICALLY, is where I take exception.



First you have to forget you ever hear of John Beck and Max Hall as they were anomalous. Maybe in many ways. RMs that were actually good quarterbacks, no injuries that ended a season. Forget them. Maybe forget Sark. I can't remember him having a major one. And try to remember that although Steve Young early and Brandon Doman were running quarterbacks to a large extent. It goes both ways. And remember Hill in 2013 stayed healthy.



See what you can remember. Help out old timers.



I vaguely remember losing a Fiesta Bowl because either Sheide or Neilson had a throwing hand injury.



I remember Jim McMahon getting substantial PT as a sophomore because Neilson or Wilson were injured.



I remember Steve Young losing to someone like UNLV filling in for injured Jim McMahon. I remember Jim McMahon losing to Wyoming in a blizzard because he tried to come back to soon from a knee injury. Then you had his infamous sore buttocks with the Bears, and his career ending body slam by a Green Bay Packers that got tired of chasing him around in the backfield. Concussions. Dimentia.



I remember Steve Young getting his first of many concussions in a loss at USU. As you know, that was not his last concussion. But his legs stayed healthy.



Anyone remember Bosco getting crippled on a sack by Michigan and limping us to victory after sitting out a quarter or so? Then the undisclosed shoulder injury his senior season that cost BYU 3 games because he could not throw deep.



Then it gets blurry due to a stretch where no QB was good enough or healthy long enough to matter.



Remember the year that we got to the 5th string QB, Tom Young, after John Walsh, Steve Clement, and Ryan Hancock all went down and the 4th string QB had transferred?



Sean Covey with a string of concussions. Gave way to Detmer.



Who can forget Detmer. Separated shoulder ruined his Heisman celebration and we got whipped by a bad Hawaii team. And then 2 separated shoulders by A&M or whomever it was that then shellacked us in the bowl game.



More years of being adrift with no talented and healthy enough to QB to make much noise. Matt Berry - hand, etc. Was Feterik in this stretch. Remember the miraculous recovery from the broken foot. Eventually it all brought us to Sark. He was an anomaly. Ben Olsen had to transfer to UCLA to get his annual injuries.



Eventually, we get to Beck and Hall. Anomalies.



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snoscythe
You know you have a shaky premise when you need to include a plea to ignore all countervailing evidence as anomolous...



Data are only deemed anomalous after the entire assessment has been made. Until you've made that comprehensive analysis and attempted to come to a conclusion that embraces all data points, you cannot cast data out as anomalous. Only when you've conducted the analysis and those data points exist outside the conclusion can you deem them anomalous.



Otherwise, you've preemptively omitting data that do not support a desired conclusion, not honestly engaging in the pursuit of truth.
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Guest
I believe it is very disingenuous to post 11 times in a single thread of your own making, thus giving the false impression that this is an active topic or of interest to anyone but the OP. We've taken the liberty of merging all 11 into a single OP to avoid that false impression.
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SpiffCoug
What we need is a QB who can make good, quick decisions on what to do with the ball. And then can accurately and efficiently either throw or run to accomplish that decision to facilitate the ball getting into the hands of our play makers.



Christian Stewart and BYU coaches should focus on eliminating QBs runs from the offense and having Stewart quickly throw the ball to Williams, Leslie, Matthews, Blackmon, Houk and others.



He should focus on getting the ball to them via pass and hand-off.
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Cougarbib
hawkwing wrote:
I believe it is very disingenuous to post 11 times in a single thread of your own making, thus giving the false impression that this is an active topic or of interest to anyone but the OP. We've taken the liberty of merging all 11 into a single OP to avoid that false impression.


actually it is quite disengeneous to assume why I posted it in multiple posts. Try posting a long post on your site with a cell phone some time while trying to correct typos. I sometimes have to scroll down 15 or 20 times in a row, with it jumping all the way back to the top as soon as I try to click on any word. Sometimes, if I click on a word on each line as I scroll towards the desired line, I can do it in 10 tries. Sometimes I give up and do not even try to fix typos.



Hate to complain about it on a free site, but you sort of dragged it out of me. I would really appreciate it if that got fixed at some point.



I tried to break it up for that purpose.



BTW, if a couple of you get over yourselves and your arrogance. You might realize that you may have some posters who are not aware of this information. No worries. You have probably made it sufficiently uncomfortable for any other posters to fill in any further details I omitted about injuries to BYU quarter backs. Any one under 40 was still unborn or in diapers when we lost the Fiesta Bowl.



PS: I forgot to thank you for consolidating it for me. And feel free to do that anytime. No need to be rude about it. BTW, it only took me 3 tries to scroll down and add my thanks on this short post.

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Cougarbib
snoscythe wrote:
You know you have a shaky premise when you need to include a plea to ignore all countervailing evidence as anomolous...



Data are only deemed anomalous after the entire assessment has been made. Until you've made that comprehensive analysis and attempted to come to a conclusion that embraces all data points, you cannot cast data out as anomalous. Only when you've conducted the analysis and those data points exist outside the conclusion can you deem them anomalous.



Otherwise, you've preemptively omitting data that do not support a desired conclusion, not honestly engaging in the pursuit of truth.


Do you think it is at all possible that one might actually be able to analyze all of the data. Reach a conclusion in the appropriate order, but present it in a different sequence?



If I had buried the acknowledgement that there are two very glaring exceptions until the very end, would you find a higher level of satisfaction. Many BYU fans grew up in John Beck and Max Hall. I decided to let them know right up front, that it was way different with those 20th for whatever reason. Sorry this was painful for you. BTW, you still did not say whether you agree that they are or are not anomalies.



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Guest
Cougarbib wrote:
I believe it is very disingenuous to post 11 times in a single thread of your own making, thus giving the false impression that this is an active topic or of interest to anyone but the OP. We've taken the liberty of merging all 11 into a single OP to avoid that false impression.


actually it is quite disengeneous to assume why I posted it in multiple posts. Try posting a long post on your site with a cell phone some time while trying to correct typos. I sometimes have to scroll down 15 or 20 times in a row, with it jumping all the way back to the top as soon as I try to click on any word. Sometimes, if I click on a word on each line as I scroll towards the desired line, I can do it in 10 tries. Sometimes I give up and do not even try to fix typos.



Hate to complain about it on a free site, but you sort of dragged it out of me. I would really appreciate it if that got fixed at some point.



I tried to break it up for that purpose.



BTW, if a couple of you get over yourselves and your arrogance. You might realize that you may have some posters who are not aware of this information. No worries. You have probably made it sufficiently uncomfortable for any other posters to fill in any further details I omitted about injuries to BYU quarter backs. Any one under 40 was still unborn or in diapers when we lost the Fiesta Bowl.



PS: I forgot to thank you for consolidating it for me. And feel free to do that anytime. No need to be rude about it. BTW, it only took me 3 tries to scroll down and add my thanks on this short post.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">


I recommend you find another site.
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Cougarbib
Hawk. I gave up trying to fix typos in my reply to Sno. That scrolling issue is most problematic, when quotes are embedded. I gave up. Idk, if pointing out this information is helpful in fixing this. But that is when it is most difficult.



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Gunk
The fact we have to go back 20 years to start calling out QBs that were injured, with the exception of Nelson and Hill, ought to tell you something. Rules and better equipment designed to safe guard QBs are in place, which probably accounts to a large degree QBs of late going uninjured. Hall, if you recall did separate shoulder but played on.



Also, I think it's important to note the type of injuries. The hand and shoulder injuries of yester-year QBs are on a much lower level than the broken back, torn MCL, and fractured leg our two running QBs as of late have experienced. Nelson is lucky to be walking. Hill will be fortunate if he's ever to see the field again.



Young, Detmer and McMahon, while experiencing injury, were able to go on and continue their football careers.



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nickdutson
Cougarbib wrote:
I believe it is very disingenuous to post 11 times in a single thread of your own making, thus giving the false impression that this is an active topic or of interest to anyone but the OP. We've taken the liberty of merging all 11 into a single OP to avoid that false impression.


actually it is quite disengeneous to assume why I posted it in multiple posts. Try posting a long post on your site with a cell phone some time while trying to correct typos. I sometimes have to scroll down 15 or 20 times in a row, with it jumping all the way back to the top as soon as I try to click on any word. Sometimes, if I click on a word on each line as I scroll towards the desired line, I can do it in 10 tries. Sometimes I give up and do not even try to fix typos.



Hate to complain about it on a free site, but you sort of dragged it out of me. I would really appreciate it if that got fixed at some point.



I tried to break it up for that purpose.



BTW, if a couple of you get over yourselves and your arrogance. You might realize that you may have some posters who are not aware of this information. No worries. You have probably made it sufficiently uncomfortable for any other posters to fill in any further details I omitted about injuries to BYU quarter backs. Any one under 40 was still unborn or in diapers when we lost the Fiesta Bowl.



PS: I forgot to thank you for consolidating it for me. And feel free to do that anytime. No need to be rude about it. BTW, it only took me 3 tries to scroll down and add my thanks on this short post.

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I'm with ya bib. The site is definitely not mobile friendly. I would love to update it so that the site is responsive.



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TulaneVandyRiceCoug
I post via mobile all the time and don't seem to have a problem. I even get a bit long-winded with some of my posts, still no prob. I use the full editor a lot, and maybe that helps.



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Brayden Green
hawkwing wrote:
hawkwing wrote:
I believe it is very disingenuous to post 11 times in a single thread of your own making, thus giving the false impression that this is an active topic or of interest to anyone but the OP. We've taken the liberty of merging all 11 into a single OP to avoid that false impression.


actually it is quite disengeneous to assume why I posted it in multiple posts. Try posting a long post on your site with a cell phone some time while trying to correct typos. I sometimes have to scroll down 15 or 20 times in a row, with it jumping all the way back to the top as soon as I try to click on any word. Sometimes, if I click on a word on each line as I scroll towards the desired line, I can do it in 10 tries. Sometimes I give up and do not even try to fix typos.



Hate to complain about it on a free site, but you sort of dragged it out of me. I would really appreciate it if that got fixed at some point.



I tried to break it up for that purpose.



BTW, if a couple of you get over yourselves and your arrogance. You might realize that you may have some posters who are not aware of this information. No worries. You have probably made it sufficiently uncomfortable for any other posters to fill in any further details I omitted about injuries to BYU quarter backs. Any one under 40 was still unborn or in diapers when we lost the Fiesta Bowl.



PS: I forgot to thank you for consolidating it for me. And feel free to do that anytime. No need to be rude about it. BTW, it only took me 3 tries to scroll down and add my thanks on this short post.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">


I recommend you find another site.


Seconded. Yikes! I know that I get in trouble for telling people that I have him on ignore, but this is exactly why... That's a pretty jerky thing to say for something so innocuous as merging posts together.
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Brayden Green
TulaneVandyRiceCoug wrote:
I post via mobile all the time and don't seem to have a problem. I even get a bit long-winded with some of my posts, still no prob. I use the full editor a lot, and maybe that helps.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">


I post from mobile all the time, in fact, primarily from mobile now. Other than typos, and once in a while losing posts to wireless data issues, or being logged out once in a while etc. It is frustrating when it happens, but I don't honestly know what to do about that.
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BYULV
If improvements need to be made to this free site we all enjoy, I'll bet the fixes would be more easily accomplished if someone were to provide a generous financial endowment to the sponsors of the site. I for one really appreciate being able to come here and read and discuss BYU sports for free. I know Hawk, Sno and others put a lot of their spare time into making this site run well for us all and we don't even see ads all over the place. If there are little glitches, so be it, but I'm not about to complain that it has to be fixed for me.



Cougar Corner Rule!
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Wolverine
BYULV wrote:
If improvements need to be made to this free site we all enjoy, I'll bet the fixes would be more easily accomplished if someone were to provide a generous financial endowment to the sponsors of the site. I for one really appreciate being able to come here and read and discuss BYU sports for free. I know Hawk, Sno and others put a lot of their spare time into making this site run well for us all and we don't even see ads all over the place. If there are little glitches, so be it, but I'm not about to complain that it has to be fixed for me.



Cougar Corner Rule!

Amen Brother!
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Brayden Green
Wolverine wrote:
If improvements need to be made to this free site we all enjoy, I'll bet the fixes would be more easily accomplished if someone were to provide a generous financial endowment to the sponsors of the site. I for one really appreciate being able to come here and read and discuss BYU sports for free. I know Hawk, Sno and others put a lot of their spare time into making this site run well for us all and we don't even see ads all over the place. If there are little glitches, so be it, but I'm not about to complain that it has to be fixed for me.



Cougar Corner Rule!

Amen Brother!

My sentiments too.



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stuckinbig10country
60% of backup QB's make at least one start a season. Injuries happen in football. That's data that goes back at least 20 years (thanks B. Doman for the info).



Starting QBs at BYU that have missed at least one start due to injury (off the top of my head)



Wilson

McMahon

Covey

Walsh

Clements

Hancock

Engemann

Peterson

Berry

John Beck (multiple times, including his great senior year)

Nelson (every year he started; every time on a passing play too, not while running)

Hill



BYU QB's that were injured during games where they missed snaps but may not have missed starts (excluding those above):



Young

Boscoe

Detmer

Doman

Jason Beck



BYU QB's that had serious injuries but didn't miss any time



Hall



So just by my observation, between what, 1978 and 2014, the QBs in 1986 and 87 (aside from Covey no one remembers) and Sarkisian every BYU QB was injured, even the passing ones. Most missed games due to injury. And if not games, they missed snaps.



And the only ones that I know for sure were injured on running plays are Doman, Hall, and Hill.
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Gunk
Yes, lots of BYU QBs have been injured. But over a 2 - 4 year career how many times were those QBs injured?



2010 - Nelson (running QB) shoulder injury, out for the season. Heaps (throwing QB) no injury.

2011 - Heaps (throwing QB) no injury. Nelson (running QB) no injury.

2012 - Nelson (running QB) fractured 3 vertebrae, came back to play; tore rib cartilage, missed the rest of the season, albeit the end; Hill (running QB) torn MCL, season ending surgery. Lark (throwing QB) no injury.

2013 - Hill (running QB) no injury.

2014 - Hill (running QB) fractured leg and torn ligaments, season/career ending surgery. Stewart (throwing QB) TBD.



Both Riley Nelson and Hill suffered season ending injuries 2 out of the 3 seasons they played at BYU.



There's also this gem from the Deseret News back in Oct. 2012:



"But in 2012, both Nelson and freshman quarterback Taysom Hill have been injured on designed run plays for the quarterback."

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865563986/BYU-football-Why-Cougar-quarterbacks-just-cant-seem-to-stay-healthy.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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SpiffCoug
Gunk wrote:
Yes, lots of BYU QBs have been injured. But over a 2 - 4 year career how many times were those QBs injured?



2010 - Nelson (running QB) shoulder injury, out for the season. Heaps (throwing QB) no injury.

2011 - Heaps (throwing QB) no injury. Nelson (running QB) no injury.

2012 - Nelson (running QB) fractured 3 vertebrae, came back to play; tore rib cartilage, missed the rest of the season, albeit the end; Hill (running QB) torn MCL, season ending surgery. Lark (throwing QB) no injury.

2013 - Hill (running QB) no injury.

2014 - Hill (running QB) fractured leg and torn ligaments, season/career ending surgery. Stewart (throwing QB) TBD.



Both Riley Nelson and Hill suffered season ending injuries 2 out of the 3 seasons they played at BYU.



There's also this gem from the Deseret News back in Oct. 2012:



"But in 2012, both Nelson and freshman quarterback Taysom Hill have been injured on designed run plays for the quarterback."

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865563986/BYU-football-Why-Cougar-quarterbacks-just-cant-seem-to-stay-healthy.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lark got a concussion in his 2nd start. In fact, no BYU QB lasted more than two starts without sustaining an injury in 2012. (Nelson injured in start 2 vs Weber, Hill injured in start 2 vs Utah St, Lark injured in start 2 vs SDSU).
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BYULV
Heaps never got injured because he was in a self protected position prior to getting hit (sorry Jake) :whistle:
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