Archived Topic

BYU pass defense vs. Houston

by kjjson · 9/17/2014

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kjjson
So I have read and heard a lot the past few days about BYU struggling last week with the Houston passing game, and that BYU/Taysom struggled passing in that game. I guess I just don't see it that way. Houston threw for 315 passing yards. I know there seems to be this magical number about 300+ yards passing equals a great passing game, but I just don't buy it in this case.

Houston was 31-53 on pass attempts. That comes out to 5.9 yards per attempt and 10.2 yards per completion. 58.5% completion percentage.



BYU was 21-34 on pass attempts. That also comes out to 5.9 yards per attempt and 9.5 yards per completion. 61.8% completion percentage. Very similar numbers to Houston.



The fact of the matter is that the only way Houston was going to move the ball was by passing it, so that is what they did.

Am I missing something else of why we need to be concerned about the pass defense?
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DeVon
I completely agree. My opinion is that a good portion of their passing yards are exactly what BYU's D allowed them to have under Bronco's bend-but-don't-break defense. Howell and the boys basically said "you can have the underneath routes but you will not throw deep on us (except one stupid Hail Mary, gulp) and you will not run on us." They challenged Houston to methodically move the ball down the field without mistakes if they wanted to score touchdowns and Houston could not do this and most teams can't do this. It works, but I HATE it. It makes me feel, during the game, like we are getting killed because they (our opponent) can drive and complete balls, but at the end of the day they will either make mistakes or our blue zone defense holds teams scoreless or to field goals.
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Gunk
I think the pass defense was just fine except for the hail mary. Yes, I know there was a missed call.



I think bigger concern from the UH game was our passing.



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Cougarbib
Devon



What you missed in your comments is that we got picked twice and stripped once on a pass play, and they did not turn it over - our defense did not create turnovers.

Also sacks. They sacked us a bunch. We did not get to their guy much.



And, we exposed Hill because he ran too much.



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Cougs_Rule
Agreed about BYUs passing. But it started with Oline who started slacking. tHill does need more time. We are slowly going away from passing game. Have to get it back!!



BUT, totally disagree on the Hail Mary. So did he AFR group. That was totally defensible and wasn't. Even with missed holding on peck. ROB Daniel even said he should have batted it down instead of getting greedy and trying to INT the ball. The defenders were totally out of position. They should have been boxing WRs out.

BUT above all, I blame the coaches for that. They should have called TO and coached up how to defend the HM Pass--BYU had 3 TOs remaining!!!! :sulk: as well, the AFR crew said they should have had a Dime package instead of a nickel package.
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DeVon
Cougarbib wrote:
Devon



What you missed in your comments is that we got picked twice and stripped once on a pass play, and they did not turn it over - our defense did not create turnovers.

Also sacks. They sacked us a bunch. We did not get to their guy much.



And, we exposed Hill because he ran too much.



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I didn't miss any of that. My comments were not meant as a complete summary of the team's performance, but rather as my observations regarding the pass defense vs Houston (you know, the title of this post). I do actually agree with everything you pointed out. I just took the opportunity to discuss the bend-but-don't-break pass defense, which is frustrating to me at times, but ultimately effective.



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Cougarbib
DeVon wrote:
Devon



What you missed in your comments is that we got picked twice and stripped once on a pass play, and they did not turn it over - our defense did not create turnovers.

Also sacks. They sacked us a bunch. We did not get to their guy much.



And, we exposed Hill because he ran too much.



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I didn't miss any of that. My comments were not meant as a complete summary of the team's performance, but rather as my observations regarding the pass defense vs Houston (you know, the title of this post). I do actually agree with everything you pointed out. I just took the opportunity to discuss the bend-but-don't-break pass defense, which is frustrating to me at times, but ultimately effective.



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The OP did compare the offense and defenses of Houston and BY and concluded that they were about the same quoting completion % and YPC type data. Then it asked what was missing. Answer: Turnovers was a huge difference.



Bend but don't break worked reasonably OK except it broke on the Hail Mary and it failed to create any turnovers. I am sure BY coaches and players will be better prepared for the hail Mary next time, but we will have to see if they can create turnovers VA a good passing offense. Oh. And bend but don't break did not get pressure on the QB to generate sacks. Finally, if bend but font created some turnovers and sacks, THill would have had great field position all night, scored with far fewer plays, and been replaced by his backup in Q4. The defense was not as good as it needed to be very the pass in those respects.



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Cougarbib
kjjson wrote:
So I have read and heard a lot the past few days about BYU struggling last week with the Houston passing game, and that BYU/Taysom struggled passing in that game. I guess I just don't see it that way. Houston threw for 315 passing yards. I know there seems to be this magical number about 300+ yards passing equals a great passing game, but I just don't buy it in this case.

Houston was 31-53 on pass attempts. That comes out to 5.9 yards per attempt and 10.2 yards per completion. 58.5% completion percentage.



BYU was 21-34 on pass attempts. That also comes out to 5.9 yards per attempt and 9.5 yards per completion. 61.8% completion percentage. Very similar numbers to Houston.



The fact of the matter is that the only way Houston was going to move the ball was by passing it, so that is what they did.

Am I missing something else of why we need to be concerned about the pass defense?


this was the op.



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DeVon
Cougarbib wrote:
The OP did compare the offense and defenses of Houston and BY and concluded that they were about the same quoting completion % and YPC type data. Then it asked what was missing. Answer: Turnovers was a huge difference.



Bend but don't break worked reasonably OK except it broke on the Hail Mary and it failed to create any turnovers. I am sure BY coaches and players will be better prepared for the hail Mary next time, but we will have to see if they can create turnovers VA a good passing offense. Oh. And bend but don't break did not get pressure on the QB to generate sacks. Finally, if bend but font created some turnovers and sacks, THill would have had great field position all night, scored with far fewer plays, and been replaced by his backup in Q4. The defense was not as good as it needed to be very the pass in those respects.



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Bib, did I offend you in some way? At the risk of sounding argumentative let me reiterate my point. Yes, BYU could have created more turnovers. Yes, BYU could have created more pressure/sacks. Yes, the defense broke on the Hail Mary (which I believe I pointed out in my original post). In my last post I conceded all of these things. I was not speaking to these issues. The OP asked what was missing in the pass defense and I responded that I think that the BBDB defense did exactly what it was supposed to, which is eliminate (or at least limit) big plays, make opposing offenses drive the whole field without mistakes in order to score, and once they get into the red zone limit scoring to field goals. This style of defense has proven to be effective over Bronco's years in holding teams to low scores so that our offense can outscore them (unless it is a Heaps or Nelson team, wink). As I said before, I do not love this defense, I wish we had the talent to get pressure, take the ball away, not allow big plays, stuff the run, and pitch shutouts; but I don't think we do, hence the bend-but-don't-break defense.



In the end I think we are saying the same thing. I have all the same issues with our defensive schemes that you do. I am simply attempting to opine (quite poorly apparently) that this performance was by design and not a result of ineffective execution. For example, you complain that there was not enough pressure on O'Korn, I complain that there was not enough pressure on O'Korn...but acknowledge that that must have been by design because they only rushed 3 a lot of the time. This scheme is stupid because it allows for a 12 yard completion and a first down, but smart because it avoids a 70 yard touchdown and they have to do it all the way down the field.



Lastly, I would like to point out that our defense limited them to 25 points and that it probably would have been even less without our own turnovers/offensive mistakes. Take those away, or even limit those, and our defensive game would have probably resulted in 0 sacks, 0 turnovers, 250-300 yards passing, 10 yards rushing, and 10-17 points. With our offensive production this year that will equal a win in 12 out of 12 games.
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frdbtr
BYU's pass defense was decent against Houston. Too many missed tackles and boneheaded plays (not knocking the ball down on the hail mary) for them to have been "good".
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Stirfry
The concern I have with the bend but don't break D is that it is built on the idea that another team can't sustain a long drive and will eventually make a mistake. Most teams can't sustain multiple long drives without mistakes but top teams can and then what do we do?



I'd also hope that our passing game would put up better averages than our D allows in a game like Houston. Their D had to worry about Taysom and JSwagg plus the passing game. Our D really only had to worry about defending the pass. Our ratios and averages should have been noticeably better than theirs.
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scott715
The BBDB did not work against SJSU a couple of years ago. They got like 3 TDs in a row and then the D changed to pressure and I don't think they scored again. We just could not score enough to get the lead back.
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YNot
Take away the one Hail Mary pass and that's 270 yards...on 52 pass attempts. O'Korn is one of the best QB's we face in 2014. Fajardo is probably better. Chuckie? Depends on his knee and whether he shows up.



And only 10 yards rushing. BYU's defense was solid, except for the Hail Mary.



IMO, BYU's biggest problem by far is turnovers. Hold on to the ball and the Hail Mary doesn't happen and the 29-yard short-field drive doesn't happen. Keep the ball and BYU's defense would have allowed UNDER 300 yards of TOTAL offense and 10-12 points.
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DeVon
Stirfry wrote:
The concern I have with the bend but don't break D is that it is built on the idea that another team can't sustain a long drive and will eventually make a mistake. Most teams can't sustain multiple long drives without mistakes but top teams can and then what do we do?



I'd also hope that our passing game would put up better averages than our D allows in a game like Houston. Their D had to worry about Taysom and JSwagg plus the passing game. Our D really only had to worry about defending the pass. Our ratios and averages should have been noticeably better than theirs.

Completely agree. Our defense should limit most teams enough to give our offense a chance to win but would fail miserably against elite offensive teams.



Our offense clearly underperformed last Thursday, I don't think we'll see that this weekend.
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Brayden Green
DeVon wrote:

Bib, did I offend you in some way?


:) You must be new here. Bib is the boardroom chihuahua, yipping loudly and nipping at everyone's heels. Especially if you are new.



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DeVon
BlueIsBetter wrote:

Bib, did I offend you in some way?


:) You must be new here. Bib is the boardroom chihuahua, yipping loudly and nipping at everyone's heels. Especially if you are new.



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I have been around for a few years and have observed the yipping and nipping, but this is my first time jumping the fence and being chased myself. What a rush! ;)
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SpiffCoug
I thought our pass D was very good vs Houston. Some breakdowns:

1st Qtr: 9 of 13 for 71 yards, 0 TD 0 INT 69.2%, 115.11 PER. 2 Passing 1st Downs, 3 10+ yard passes, 2 passes of less than 3 yards



2nd Qtr: 12 of 20 for 151 yards, 2 TDs 0 INTs, 60.0%, 156.42 PER, 7 Passing 1st Downs, 5 10+ yard passes, 2 passes of less than 3 yards



3rd Qtr: 3 of 6 for 17 yards, 0 TD 0 INT 50.0%, 73.80 PER, 0 Passing 1st Downs, 0 10+ yard passes, 1 pass of less than 3 yards.



4th Qtr: 7 of 14 for 76 yards, 1 TD 0 INT 50.0%, 119.17 PER, 4 Passing 1st Downs, 3 10+ yard passes, 1 pass of less than 3 yards.



Houston did almost all of their damage in one quarter - the 2nd. They did very little in the 1st, 3rd or 4th.



By Down:

1st Down: 13 fo 21 for 189 yards, 2 TD 0 INT 61.9%, 168.93 PER, 7 Passing 1st downs



2nd Down: 8 of 18 for 45 yards, 1 TD 0 INT 44.4%, 93.73 PER, 3 passing 1st Downs



3rd Down: 10 of 14 for 81 yards, 0 TD 0 INT 71.4%, 120.03 PER, 4 passing 1st Downs



If we could hold them on 1st down we stood chance stopping them on 2nd or 3rd.
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Cougarbib
DeVon wrote:
DeVon wrote:

Bib, did I offend you in some way?


:) You must be new here. Bib is the boardroom chihuahua, yipping loudly and nipping at everyone's heels. Especially if you are new.



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I have been around for a few years and have observed the yipping and nipping, but this is my first time jumping the fence and being chased myself. What a rush! ;)


The bend but don't break is intended to create turnovers. Turnovers are one of the mistakes it assumes will kill long drives. It did not do that Thursday. BYU in a recent season had a turnover deficit, focused on it and announced that they were focused on it, and started to turn KVN and others loose a bit more to bring pressure. It worked and they started getting more. Hard hitting is intended to pop balls out as well. Stripping the ball when tackling. Swarming to the ball and gang tackling. BYU turned up the heat the last series and you saw mistakes by Houston. More of that throughout the game will create turnovers. Despite his praisers on this thread, Okorn has been a turnover machine in 2014 prior to the BYU game. This is all part of pass defense. It would be interesting if Blue is Better, who has gone on record as saying he could shut down Anae with any MWC defense, actually has an opinion on this topic speaking of nipping.



Our only disagreement seems to be that you have gotten defensive when Kjison asked what was missing, you agreed with his post, and I answered addressing you instead of Kjison and you - my bad - and you said, rudely, that my comments had nothing to do with pass defense, the title thread. I am just repeating that they have everything to do with pass defense.



Maybe Blue could offer his opinion about whether bringing pressure, stripping receivers of the ball, intercepting errant throws, reading the QB eyes to get a pick, ball jarring tackles on receivers, etc., have anything to do with the title of the thread. Pass defense involves 11 players and some coaches. Spiff publishes data on how BYU defense performs relative to how other opponents held our opponents. Rush defense has been impressive. Pass defense has not been terrible, but not impressive.



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Cougarbib
SpiffCoug wrote:
I thought our pass D was very good vs Houston. Some breakdowns:

1st Qtr: 9 of 13 for 71 yards, 0 TD 0 INT 69.2%, 115.11 PER. 2 Passing 1st Downs, 3 10+ yard passes, 2 passes of less than 3 yards



2nd Qtr: 12 of 20 for 151 yards, 2 TDs 0 INTs, 60.0%, 156.42 PER, 7 Passing 1st Downs, 5 10+ yard passes, 2 passes of less than 3 yards



3rd Qtr: 3 of 6 for 17 yards, 0 TD 0 INT 50.0%, 73.80 PER, 0 Passing 1st Downs, 0 10+ yard passes, 1 pass of less than 3 yards.



4th Qtr: 7 of 14 for 76 yards, 1 TD 0 INT 50.0%, 119.17 PER, 4 Passing 1st Downs, 3 10+ yard passes, 1 pass of less than 3 yards.



Houston did almost all of their damage in one quarter - the 2nd. They did very little in the 1st, 3rd or 4th.



By Down:

1st Down: 13 fo 21 for 189 yards, 2 TD 0 INT 61.9%, 168.93 PER, 7 Passing 1st downs



2nd Down: 8 of 18 for 45 yards, 1 TD 0 INT 44.4%, 93.73 PER, 3 passing 1st Downs



3rd Down: 10 of 14 for 81 yards, 0 TD 0 INT 71.4%, 120.03 PER, 4 passing 1st Downs



If we could hold them on 1st down we stood chance stopping them on 2nd or 3rd.


Now. Comparing Houston PER Vs BYU to their PER Vs their 2 mediocre opponents, how did BY do compared to each of their opponents. I would guess we did worse than the first one and better than the 2nd one and below the average of the 2. I have not looked. If my assumption holds out, we were decent but unspectacular. And lack of turnovers is why.



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stuckinbig10country
Bend but don't break isn't really what this defense is about and the pressures and coverages that BYU uses are actually among the most complex in the college game.



While it's true the defense is based (generally) on keeping everything in front of them, they methodically start taking away what the other team is trying to do as the game goes on.
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