BYU's level of talent

Well, after 2 years of no one getting drafted, we have had 2 years of 1 person getting drafted. I think it is painfully obvious that BYU needs to get more NFL talent in order to get the team where we all want it to be. I think it is also time to give Bronco some credit for putting together some wins with teams that have not been up to par talent wise.

Is it that BYU doesn't get the talent, or they don't develop the talent properly?



I would think it is the latter, as much as the former. As to last years draft, he might not have even started had an injury not opened up a position for him. Then he wouldn't have been invited to the senior bowl, or the combine. Some scouts would have been in for a show when the half dozen of them came for "Pro" day, but besides that there might have been a completely different story.



It sucks to constantly get out drafted by our rival year in and out.

Mars wrote:


Well, BYU had 1 more player drafted this year than Texas did...

Thanks.

I think if given the choice between BYU and Texas and deciding which team did a better job of developing talent this year, I'd give the nod to BYU.

BlueIsBetter wrote:
Is it that BYU doesn't get the talent, or they don't develop the talent properly?



I would think it is the latter, as much as the former. As to last years draft, he might not have even started had an injury not opened up a position for him. Then he wouldn't have been invited to the senior bowl, or the combine. Some scouts would have been in for a show when the half dozen of them came for "Pro" day, but besides that there might have been a completely different story.



It sucks to constantly get out drafted by our rival year in and out.

non sense. Ansah got drafted even though he was a walk on that had failed at couple of other sports before Bronco took a chance on him. And he was hardly a typical talent.



This is fan denial at its fullest. BYU gets average ranked recruiting classes every single year except 2010 and has unimpressive drafts and here comes Blue proclaiming that the talent is there but Bronco failed to develop it. #fantasyland

Well, when you have an offense sponsored by the EPA's Superfund, that cuts draft potential in half....

Cougarbib wrote:

Is it that BYU doesn't get the talent, or they don't develop the talent properly?



I would think it is the latter, as much as the former. As to last years draft, he might not have even started had an injury not opened up a position for him. Then he wouldn't have been invited to the senior bowl, or the combine. Some scouts would have been in for a show when the half dozen of them came for "Pro" day, but besides that there might have been a completely different story.



It sucks to constantly get out drafted by our rival year in and out.

non sense. Ansah got drafted even though he was a walk on that had failed at couple of other sports before Bronco took a chance on him. And he was hardly a typical talent.



This is fan denial at its fullest. BYU gets average ranked recruiting classes every single year except 2010 and has unimpressive drafts and here comes Blue proclaiming that the talent is there but Bronco failed to develop it. #fantasyland

There are few true dichotomies. Neither of these posts are completely true or false.

Ziggy was a freak of nature mixed with a high degree of intelligence and hunger to learn. Bronco seemed slow to start Ziggy and maybe slow to develop--sort of. But develop he did. BUT, Ziggy brought so much more than Bronco's development. He brought freakish size and speed.

People sometimes give the impression that the Ziggy that showed up at Radio City Music Hall for the 2013 Draft wearing popped-lens 3D glasses was the same Ezekial Ansah that shuffled into Bronco's office looking for a sport to play.



Truth is, the personality behind the glasses is about the only thing that was the same. I don't know the guy personally at all, but have you seen the picture of him with his RM pal at LES attending his first football game? Skinny, stringy kid who by his own account said the game looked too violent and he'd be afraid he'd get hurt. His technique, his size and to a degree even his speed was a product of his development at BYU. The cougars can rightly take as much credit for his development as any school can for any player's development: Not all (a kid's endowment of will & skills also counts), but certainly a lot.



* * * * *



Sno - Sorry; maybe it's a Monday morning thing, but I don't follow your post. Offense & EPA Superfund?

Jared Lloyd makes a list of plausible reasons why we don't get a lot of folks to stick in NFL--through the draft or UFA routes.



http://www.heraldextra.com/sports/blogs/jared-lloyd/byu/lloyd-five-reasons-why-byu-football-players-aren-t-being/article_5a5a9e87-7160-5f34-91c8-0ccf319556e6.html?



In a nutshell (and expanding on his reasoning), he compares BYU's placement success of draft and total current roster players with Utah, Boise State and Utah State and posits 5 reasons for the lack of production:



1. BYU lifestyle, resulting in selection bias--assuming top athletes don't want the BYU lifestyle.

2. Age. Older potential draftees both have a shorter shelf life and have less uncertainty about their productivity potential. Those extra years demonstrate what a player is really capable of, and the draft is a gamble: a GM would rather take a lark on a kid with slightly lower demonstrated ability but greater uncertainty around his top-end potential.

3. No national splash. BYU hasn't done anything really noteworthy.

4. Lack of Speedy players.

5. Injuries.



Our discussion of attracting "talent" is addressed by 1 and 4.



Personally, I concede that BYU's experience is different from U/USU/BSU in points 1 and 2, and different from U/BSU in 3. But Lloyd doesn't make the point that those comparators' experience has been different for 4 or 5, and I don't see it, particularly for 5. Have other teams not had injuries? In fact, it was an injury that opened the door for Ziggy to rise up and eventually be drafted.



I don't like being below Utah or Boise State a bit. But it's another level of aggravating that we're getting shown up by Utah State. And I haven't seen any good explanations of why--except maybe 1 and 2.



One last thought. Bronco has always developed the team as a team, not as individuals. He's not developing for the NFL, where individual talent matters (Lloyd touches on this briefly). That could also be where NFL-calibre talents like Cameron Jensen choose not to stay around--the premium placed on individual talent doesn't sit with the "team first" indoctrination of BYU's program.

CrimsonCoug wrote:
Jared Lloyd makes a list of plausible reasons why we don't get a lot of folks to stick in NFL--through the draft or UFA routes.



http://www.heraldextra.com/sports/blogs/jared-lloyd/byu/lloyd-five-reasons-why-byu-football-players-aren-t-being/article_5a5a9e87-7160-5f34-91c8-0ccf319556e6.html?



In a nutshell (and expanding on his reasoning), he compares BYU's placement success of draft and total current roster players with Utah, Boise State and Utah State and posits 5 reasons for the lack of production:



1. BYU lifestyle, resulting in selection bias--assuming top athletes don't want the BYU lifestyle.

2. Age. Older potential draftees both have a shorter shelf life and have less uncertainty about their productivity potential. Those extra years demonstrate what a player is really capable of, and the draft is a gamble: a GM would rather take a lark on a kid with slightly lower demonstrated ability but greater uncertainty around his top-end potential.

3. No national splash. BYU hasn't done anything really noteworthy.

4. Lack of Speedy players.

5. Injuries.



Our discussion of attracting "talent" is addressed by 1 and 4.



Personally, I concede that BYU's experience is different from U/USU/BSU in points 1 and 2, and different from U/BSU in 3. But Lloyd doesn't make the point that those comparators' experience has been different for 4 or 5, and I don't see it, particularly for 5. Have other teams not had injuries? In fact, it was an injury that opened the door for Ziggy to rise up and eventually be drafted.



I don't like being below Utah or Boise State a bit. But it's another level of aggravating that we're getting shown up by Utah State. And I haven't seen any good explanations of why--except maybe 1 and 2.



One last thought. Bronco has always developed the team as a team, not as individuals. He's not developing for the NFL, where individual talent matters (Lloyd touches on this briefly). That could also be where NFL-calibre talents like Cameron Jensen choose not to stay around--the premium placed on individual talent doesn't sit with the "team first" indoctrination of BYU's program.

#4. That one is obvious. African American speed and lots of it. BYU gets a few African Americans. Even gets a few to survive the cultural isolation and avoid honor code issues. U, USU, and BSU lead up every year at RB, DB, and WR. This is the biggest talent issue at BYU year after year.



Utah ha ax slipped back behind us in recruiting this year. Let's hope they stay there. They rode Urban Meyers coattails for a while. Maybe that is over. USU does not get higher ranked classes. BSU does at times, but not always.



Nationally. BYU is typically close to the median and far from elite.



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CrimsonCoug wrote:
Sno - Sorry; maybe it's a Monday morning thing, but I don't follow your post. Offense & EPA Superfund?

When your offense has been a dumpster fire for ~3 years, you're not going to get any offensive players drafted. Therefore, the only realistic draftees will be on the other side of the ball. You've cut your potential draftees in half with the Doman Experiment.

snoscythe wrote:

Sno - Sorry; maybe it's a Monday morning thing, but I don't follow your post. Offense & EPA Superfund?

When your offense has been a dumpster fire for ~3 years, you're not going to get any offensive players drafted. Therefore, the only realistic draftees will be on the other side of the ball. You've cut your potential draftees in half with the Doman Experiment.

Not really. Who do you think we're the Draft worthy players that got overlooked on offense. Hoffman put up gaudy numbers and got a good look - combine results exposed physical shortcomings. Friel and one other tight end worked out and got looks. Did not impress under the microscope. Who would these overlooked NFL studs be? Falslev? Ridley.Some hidden gem on that OL?



This is why nobody on that offense got drafted and only Hoffman got picked up right away.



QB - Sophomore

RB - Sophomore just turned 19 in May

FB - Did not really have one

TE - Friel was the starter

WR - Hoffman, Falslev, Ridley

OL - makeshift - mostly underclassmen



Who did the NFL overlook due to BYU failure to develop them and highlight their skills?



Hill and Williams show promise. They may get drafted some day. Just not as sophomores. An NFL lineman might be in the mix - after getting more experience. We had to load up on receivers due to the vacuum there.



It is simply indicative of the talent and experience level we had.



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SpiffCoug wrote:
I think if given the choice between BYU and Texas and deciding which team did a better job of developing talent this year, I'd give the nod to BYU.

And what about the choice of byu and Utah State over the last 5 years? Forget about the Utes, we aren't even out producing Utah State!



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CrimsonCoug wrote:
Jared Lloyd makes a list of plausible reasons why we don't get a lot of folks to stick in NFL--through the draft or UFA routes.



http://www.heraldextra.com/sports/blogs/jared-lloyd/byu/lloyd-five-reasons-why-byu-football-players-aren-t-being/article_5a5a9e87-7160-5f34-91c8-0ccf319556e6.html?



In a nutshell (and expanding on his reasoning), he compares BYU's placement success of draft and total current roster players with Utah, Boise State and Utah State and posits 5 reasons for the lack of production:



1. BYU lifestyle, resulting in selection bias--assuming top athletes don't want the BYU lifestyle.

2. Age. Older potential draftees both have a shorter shelf life and have less uncertainty about their productivity potential. Those extra years demonstrate what a player is really capable of, and the draft is a gamble: a GM would rather take a lark on a kid with slightly lower demonstrated ability but greater uncertainty around his top-end potential.

3. No national splash. BYU hasn't done anything really noteworthy.

4. Lack of Speedy players.

5. Injuries.



Our discussion of attracting "talent" is addressed by 1 and 4.



Personally, I concede that BYU's experience is different from U/USU/BSU in points 1 and 2, and different from U/BSU in 3. But Lloyd doesn't make the point that those comparators' experience has been different for 4 or 5, and I don't see it, particularly for 5. Have other teams not had injuries? In fact, it was an injury that opened the door for Ziggy to rise up and eventually be drafted.



I don't like being below Utah or Boise State a bit. But it's another level of aggravating that we're getting shown up by Utah State. And I haven't seen any good explanations of why--except maybe 1 and 2.



One last thought. Bronco has always developed the team as a team, not as individuals. He's not developing for the NFL, where individual talent matters (Lloyd touches on this briefly). That could also be where NFL-calibre talents like Cameron Jensen choose not to stay around--the premium placed on individual talent doesn't sit with the "team first" indoctrination of BYU's program.

This is reality as I see it and I am usually pretty good at being biased. BYU doesn't even get the type of speedy recruits that Utah gets. And that talent gap is why we're on a 4 game losing streak to them. At almost every position over that time frame they have been better. (Remind me again how we lost Murphy :blush: )



But the new recruits are certainly different and exactly what we need. Basketball should do the same. You can only go so far recruiting the best white guys from Utah and Idaho...

Few thoughts...



I've mentioned this before and given the topic of white vs. African American players thought I'd mention it again. Some years ago a study was done where males were brought in and asked to practice some golf putts on a practice green. One group was told the putts were a test of strength and agility. Th other test group was told the putts were a test of intelligence and aptitude. The African Americans performed better than the white males in the first group. The white males performed better than the African Americans in the second group. Same putting green, just different expectations were set, which changed the results depending on what resonated with test subject.



How's this relate to BYU football? First for fans, the perception is African American athletes are better/stronger automatically because of their skin color. We fall into the stereotype just as much as the athletes do. In the end, how many African American athletes have there been at BYU that really didn't pan out to be the super athletes we hoped/expected them to be because of their skin color.



Second, sports is as much mental as it is physical. Perhaps BYU isn't getting as much out of its athletes because we aren't motivating the right way. Rather than telling them, "You're just as fast, just as strong," we should be instead using messages that resonate with their own stereotypes but create the same results. Something like, "You're smarter, you're better skilled."



Regarding Ziggy, I think Bronco got lucky. Bronco is all about ownership and rewards the players that take ownership - sort of. Ziggy took ownership. Ziggy seized an opportunity. Did Bronco "develop" Ziggy? Sort of. Bronco provided an environment were Ziggy could develop. Ziggy took it from there. If I recall correctly, Bronco even stated that he did not spend much personal time with Ziggy. As much as we want it to be the Disney movie with a coach working extra hours with the raw, talented athlete, that didn't happen. Ziggy would not have sniffed the field if it weren't for injuries as we all know Bronco tends to favor experience over athleticism.



IMO, BYU does an average job of maximizing the talent it has. Lots of room for improvement.

BlueIsBetter wrote:

I think if given the choice between BYU and Texas and deciding which team did a better job of developing talent this year, I'd give the nod to BYU.

And what about the choice of byu and Utah State over the last 5 years? Forget about the Utes, we aren't even out producing Utah State!



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Well, considering we've beaten USU on the field the last three years and despite them putting more guys in the NFL than we have, I would also have to take our coaches' ability on player development over Utah State's.

Guys, go back and look at how many drafted players Crowton had.



2002 draft - record 12-2 - 5 players drafted

2003 draft - record 5-7 - 2 players drafted

2004 draft - record 4-8 - 1 player drafted

2005 draft - record 5-7 - 3 players drafted



Crowton had 3 players drafted from the team that got him fired. As a fan of BYU, do you want to go back to losing and having drafted players, or winning with undrafted players? Crowton did a better job of promoting his borderline draftable players than Bronco does, but he also had more NFL contacts than Bronco.

stuckinbig10country wrote:
Guys, go back and look at how many drafted players Crowton had.



2002 draft - record 12-2 - 5 players drafted

2003 draft - record 5-7 - 2 players drafted

2004 draft - record 4-8 - 1 player drafted

2005 draft - record 5-7 - 3 players drafted



Crowton had 3 players drafted from the team that got him fired. As a fan of BYU, do you want to go back to losing and having drafted players, or winning with undrafted players? Crowton did a better job of promoting his borderline draftable players than Bronco does, but he also had more NFL contacts than Bronco.

Crowton also recruited in a very different way than Bronco, and I don't have to rehearse for you the problems that eventually caused us on and off the field.



Two points I haven't seen made in this thread yet:

1) You can recruit someone who is an amazing athlete and Honor Code disaster waiting to happen. That person will be a liability through college, and potentially drag others down as well. However, the moral requirements of the NFL, though not non-existent, are far lower than BYU's, and they will get talent wherever they can find it. That would boost our number of draftees, but ruin our program. Draftees is not the only indicator of a good football program, especially at a place like BYU.



2) Not all BYU football players want to play in the NFL. Eli Herring is the prototypical example, but there are also guys like Coleby Clawson that for health or family reasons just aren't interested. I'd wager that the overlap between our potentially draftable players and our players who aren't interested in being drafted is probably zero over the last few seasons, but BYU is probably one of the only places that happens to anyone except multi-sport athletes that chose something besides football.

Gunk wrote:

I've mentioned this before and given the topic of white vs. African American players thought I'd mention it again. Some years ago a study was done where males were brought in and asked to practice some golf putts on a practice green. One group was told the putts were a test of strength and agility. Th other test group was told the putts were a test of intelligence and aptitude. The African Americans performed better than the white males in the first group. The white males performed better than the African Americans in the second group. Same putting green, just different expectations were set, which changed the results depending on what resonated with test subject.

Gunk - that's interesting. In behavioral economics we call this phenomenon "framing". I've seen studies that gave IQ tests to OBC (Other Backwards Caste) kids in India--they randomly assigned some to take the test and were told that the evaluators would be comparing the scores of the OBC kids against the rest of India. Another group was just told that the scores would be compared against the rest of the country with no mention of OBC. The OBC-labeled kids did worse. In another study in Cambodia, a group of smart poor kids was randomly split in three: one was given a scholarship that they were told was merit-based, one was given an identical scholarship they were told was needs-based, and the third was not given any scholarship. Both the merit- and needs-based increased enrollment and attendance of the control group, but only the merit-based group increased test scores. I hadn't seen the golf study, though; that's interesting. I think all of this just shows that 1. You can create stereotypes, and 2. on average, people conform their behavior to the beliefs that they and others have about them.



With that said, it's probably not helpful to say "We need more team speed, therefore we need more African Americans." (Not that you were saying that, but some others seemed to be making that argument). it's not helpful to the current roster, and probably not helpful to African American kids either as they see themselves as fast, but only fast (like the needs-based Cambodian kids who saw themselves as needing the schollie to attend, but not to do well).



In the end, we need speed, regardless of race--which is why Holliday and other minority coaches on staff is a positive because we want speed wherever we can find it, and need to make cultural backgrounds feel able to fit at BYU wherever that speed is found. Speed is not defined by race.