Archived Topic

Taysom Hill and Selective Memory Bias

by Mars · 4/10/2014

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Mars


Selective Memory: An ability to remember some facts while apparently forgetting others, especially when they are inconvenient. The ability to retrieve certain facts and events but not others.



Confirmation Bias: The tendency of people to favor information that confirms their beliefs or hypotheses. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way.



Warning- These biases may result in false belief perseverance, wishful thinking, overconfidence, and poor decision making.



-~*~-~*~-~*~-~*~-~*~-~*~-~*~-~*~-~*~-~*~-~*~-~*~-~*~-~*~-~*~-~*~-~*~-~*~-~*~-~*~-~*~-



I hear "Taysom Hill" mentioned frequently in connection with "Heisman" and "NFL". It seems like a large jump to me, too-quickly made. Here's a look at some stats last year (the negative, mostly, since the positive -10th in individual yardage, for example, or 550 rushing yards against Texas- seem to be more frequently published and referred back to):



2013 Individual Completion Percentage rating:

QB Taysom Hill, BYU. 95th out of 100. 53.9%. (Team: 103rd of 123)

QB Teddy Bridgewater, Louisville. 71%.



Individual Passing Efficiency:

Taysom Hill, 89th of of 100. 118.1. (Team: 98th of 123)

Jameis Winston, Florida State. 184.8.



Team 3rd Down Completion Percentage:

BYU, 85th out of 123. 37.7%.

LSU. 57.1%.



Team Interceptions Thrown:

BYU, 80th out of 123. 14.

Louisville. 4.



Team Sacks Allowed:

BYU, 107th out of 123. 38 sacks for 232 yards lost.

Toledo. 6 sacks for 26 yards lost.



Team Time of Possession:

BYU, 105th out of 123. 27:47 minutes per game.

Bowling Green. 34:03 minutes per game.



http://stats.ncaa.org/rankings/change_sport_year_div" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;





Taysom can definitely put an offense on his legs and do his very best to win a game all on his own. But just look at the Washington game. 48 pass attempts, 31 rushes, for 79 total offensive plays. And it wasn't nearly enough. And here's the thing- It won't be in the future, either... Not without major improvement to his main weaknesses. Which may (John Beck) or may not (Jake Heaps, Riley Nelson) happen. It has yet to be seen. And is by no means assured.
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frdbtr
I'm not in the Taysom Hill for Heisman camp, you are correct that his passing stats don't put him in that group yet. Having said that, if Taysom Hill had left BYU and put his name in the NFL draft this year, he would get drafted somewhere simply because of his athletic ability. Someone would take a chance on him and see if they could develop him. If Jake Locker could go as a top 10 pick after never having had 1 season above 60% passing at Washington, someone would take a chance on Hill somewhere in the draft.
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mizzoucoug
I predicted during his freshman season that he'd be in the running for the Heisman sometime during the rest of his career. He's not a great passer yet, but he'll go down as one of the greats. You are simply stating that he's not there yet. Yay. And you got lambasted for it on CB. Here we just dismiss it as irrelevant when projecting into the future.
M
Mars
mizzoucoug wrote:
I predicted during his freshman season that he'd be in the running for the Heisman sometime during the rest of his career. He's not a great passer yet, but he'll go down as one of the greats. You are simply stating that he's not there yet. Yay. And you got lambasted for it on CB. Here we just dismiss it as irrelevant when projecting into the future.

Haha. Yeah, I did.



I wouldn't call it completely irrelevant though. I mean, Taysom Hill's numbers have to be more relevant to Taysom Hill than anyone else's numbers, at least as a starting point. Spiff is usually good with an expected growth timeline based on past examples (whether that is 15 PER growth per season, or whatever).
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Guest
Mars wrote:
I predicted during his freshman season that he'd be in the running for the Heisman sometime during the rest of his career. He's not a great passer yet, but he'll go down as one of the greats. You are simply stating that he's not there yet. Yay. And you got lambasted for it on CB. Here we just dismiss it as irrelevant when projecting into the future.

Haha. Yeah, I did.



I wouldn't call it completely irrelevant though. I mean, Taysom Hill's numbers have to be more relevant to Taysom Hill than anyone else's numbers, at least as a starting point. Spiff is usually good with an expected growth timeline based on past examples (whether that is 15 PER growth per season, or whatever).


I would love to see this from Spiff:



What is the average/distribution of PER growth from year 1 to year 2, year 2 to 3, year 3 to 4, etc. as well as, freshman to soph, sophmore to jr, jr to senior.
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jvquarterback
hawkwing wrote:
mizzoucoug wrote:
I predicted during his freshman season that he'd be in the running for the Heisman sometime during the rest of his career. He's not a great passer yet, but he'll go down as one of the greats. You are simply stating that he's not there yet. Yay. And you got lambasted for it on CB. Here we just dismiss it as irrelevant when projecting into the future.

Haha. Yeah, I did.



I wouldn't call it completely irrelevant though. I mean, Taysom Hill's numbers have to be more relevant to Taysom Hill than anyone else's numbers, at least as a starting point. Spiff is usually good with an expected growth timeline based on past examples (whether that is 15 PER growth per season, or whatever).


I would love to see this from Spiff:



What is the average/distribution of PER growth from year 1 to year 2, year 2 to 3, year 3 to 4, etc. as well as, freshman to soph, sophmore to jr, jr to senior.


There's a lot of data on this for NFL QBs. Basically QBs improve the most between years 1-2 ans 2-3 without much improvement afterward.



I don't think anyone would say Hill will be a Heisman contender without improvement. But with improvement, which is the norm for all college QBs and which Hill demonstrated during the season last year, he certainly has the athleticism to become a great QB.



BTW I was wondering what would happen if you posted this here rather than CB. Guess we'll find out.
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scott715
CB has it on the top 10 page.
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Mars


CB is right to think that I was insulting them. It's not meant as an insult to anyone here.



Taysom got worse from his Freshman year to his Sophomore year (statistically). Riley Nelson and Jake Locker both had worse Senior seasons than they did as Juniors. But by all expectations, Taysom should see a big jump in 2014. A 20 PER jump maybe, Spiff?
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SpiffCoug
I'll put together some stuff this weekend.
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imuakahuku
SpiffCoug wrote:
I'll put together some stuff this weekend.

LOL. Homework! :lol: :angry:



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Mars
imuakahuku wrote:
I'll put together some stuff this weekend.

LOL. Homework! :lol: :angry:

Don't let him fool you, he actually likes this stuff. ;)





Thanks Spiff! :D
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Cougarbib
Op is objective and fair. Selective in reminding of the negative, but acknowledged the rushing prowess.



And. He was a sophomore. Because of injury, he did not play much as a freshman and had to rehab which slowed progress.



I will make a bold prediction. Even if he does not improve a lick, the schedule next year will give him 15-20 PER points. I think he will also improve. I expect a 25 PER point improvement.



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SpiffCoug
Ok here's what I did (I've now got box scores loaded for QBs going all the way back through Marc Wilson - shout out to CougarStats.com which is a phenomenal website!)



Took the averages for all SO and JR quarterbacks at BYU and then multiplied those average games by 13 (for an average season) to see what we can expect:



SO QBs

Average Game: 18.8 of 32.1 (.587 completion) for 256.8 yards with 1.6 TDs and 1.1 INTs for a 135.18 PER and sacked 2.4 times.

Average Season: 245 of 417 (.587 completion) for 3.339 yards with 20.5 TDs and 14.7 INTs for a 135.18 PER and sacked 31 times.



Taysom Hill, SO, Season: 236 of 438 (.539 completion) for 2,938 yards with 19 TDs and 14 INTs for a 118.15 PER and sacked 38 times.



JR QBs

Average Game: 20.4 of 33.3 (.614 completion) for 270.8 yards with 2.0 TDs and 1.2 INTs for a 142.46 PER and sacked 2.3 times.

Season Average: 266 of 433 (.614 completion) for 3,520 yards with 26 TDs and 15 INTs for a 142.46 PER and sacked 29 times.



The improvement is 8.5% in completions, 3.8% in attempts, 5.4% in yards, 26.1% in touchdowns, 2.4% in interceptions, 5.4% in PER, 4.5% in completion percentage, and 6.5% reduction in sacks.



If that holds true for Hill, his JR season may look something like this:

256 of 455 (.563 completion) for 3,097 yards with 24 TDs and 14 INTs for a 124.69 PEr and 36 sacks.
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SpiffCoug
Cougarbib wrote:
Op is objective and fair. Selective in reminding of the negative, but acknowledged the rushing prowess.



And. He was a sophomore. Because of injury, he did not play much as a freshman and had to rehab which slowed progress.



I will make a bold prediction. Even if he does not improve a lick, the schedule next year will give him 15-20 PER points. I think he will also improve. I expect a 25 PER point improvement.



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I think THill can see a 15-20 PER point improvement. For instance if he had completed 60% of his passes instead of 53.9%, (and if his TD%, INT% and YPCom remained the same) his PER would have gone from 118.15 to 134.57.
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Mars
SpiffCoug wrote:
SO QBs

Average Season: 245 of 417 (.587 completion) for 3.339 yards with 20.5 TDs and 14.7 INTs for a 135.18 PER and sacked 31 times.



Taysom Hill, SO, Season: 236 of 438 (.539 completion) for 2,938 yards with 19 TDs and 14 INTs for a 118.15 PER and sacked 38 times.



JR QBs

Season Average: 266 of 433 (.614 completion) for 3,520 yards with 26 TDs and 15 INTs for a 142.46 PER and sacked 29 times.



The improvement is 8.5% in completions, 3.8% in attempts, 5.4% in yards, 26.1% in touchdowns, 2.4% in interceptions, 5.4% in PER, 4.5% in completion percentage, and 6.5% reduction in sacks.



If that holds true for Hill, his JR season may look something like this:

256 of 455 (.563 completion) for 3,097 yards with 24 TDs and 14 INTs for a 124.69 PEr and 36 sacks.

Not only am I impressed with your data, but I'm impressed with how quickly you've put it all together. Though the numbers aren't quite as impressive as I expected.



Thanks Spiff.
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Stirfry
So it's not fair to throw out bad games for Taysom and not bad games for others but what if the first two games, Virginia and Texas, are removed. He was coming off an injury, huricane conditions, and first two games of the season.



I'd also guess that most of those former QB's didn't start the season and their first games came in the middle of WAC/Mtn West competition that was not only easier but also they had the advantage of watching from the sidelines for 3-4 games early on. (Also, they didn't have Captain Chaos as their mentors :P )



I have a lot of confidence in Taysoms arm. I'm not sure why there's a lot of QB's out there with strong arms and no accuracy but for some reason I think he's going to get it. Maybe it's my blue goggles.
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Cougarbib
Spiff indicated his data is all juniors vs all sophomores which means there is likely a lot of first time starter junior data masking how well juniors who played as sophomores improved. Perhaps the analysis could be refined to include data for only the QBS that played as sophomores.



Junior to senior would be less skewed because few BYU QBS did not have to wait until their senior year to start. Even Do man got 2 or 3 starts as a junior. A guy or 2 like Lark may slightly cloud that comparison.



But soph to junior analysis would be clouded by guys like Bosco. Young only got a couple of sophomore starts.



Guys like Feterick, Detmer, etc., that played quite a bit as a soph and as a junior, would be interesting to look at.



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SpiffCoug
Very good catch Bib. I'll rerun the numbers to only include QBs who played as juniors and sophomores. This will will remove sophomores like Berry who didn't play as juniors or juniors like Bosco who didn't play as sophomores. Might give us a much better indication.
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SpiffCoug
So I re-ran the numbers and there could be an argument to be made that Hill might not improve all that much. I only ran the numbers for Sophomore QBs that also played as Juniors.



So the list was actually pretty small: John Beck, Ty Detmer, Brett Engemann, Kevin Feterik, Max Hall, Jim McMahon and John Walsh. And the improvement from their SO to JR years, taken as a whole, wasn't all that great.



Their SO years:

77 games 49 wins (.636)

1519 of 2542 (.598) for 21,729 yards with 136 TDs and 82 INTs for a 142.76 PER sacked 192 times.



Their JR years:

98 games 69 wins (.704)

2192 of 3511 (.624) for 29,128 yards with 228 TDs and 113 INTs for a 147.11 PER sacked 195 times.



So if that level of improvement holds, we're looking at season like this from Hill:

267 of 477 (.559) fro 3,084 yards with 25 TDs and 15 INTs for a 121.14 PER and sacked 30 times.



That's still a little low on the PER side for my likings. I think we'll see a better than 3% improvement in PER.
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frdbtr
SpiffCoug wrote:
So I re-ran the numbers and there could be an argument to be made that Hill might not improve all that much. I only ran the numbers for Sophomore QBs that also played as Juniors.



So the list was actually pretty small: John Beck, Ty Detmer, Brett Engemann, Kevin Feterik, Max Hall, Jim McMahon and John Walsh. And the improvement from their SO to JR years, taken as a whole, wasn't all that great.



Their SO years:

77 games 49 wins (.636)

1519 of 2542 (.598) for 21,729 yards with 136 TDs and 82 INTs for a 142.76 PER sacked 192 times.



Their JR years:

98 games 69 wins (.704)

2192 of 3511 (.624) for 29,128 yards with 228 TDs and 113 INTs for a 147.11 PER sacked 195 times.



So if that level of improvement holds, we're looking at season like this from Hill:

267 of 477 (.559) fro 3,084 yards with 25 TDs and 15 INTs for a 121.14 PER and sacked 30 times.



That's still a little low on the PER side for my likings. I think we'll see a better than 3% improvement in PER.


No, the argument that he may improve a ton can be made simply because if he happens to improve to a 147 per, that would be a huge jump (147 being the average per of the JR's you researched).
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