Just How Bad Was That OL?

The OL was bad in 2013. I heard that from a friend who heard that directly from 2J right after he accepted the job. He knew the cupboard was bare coming out of 2012. BYU recruited accordingly. But that recruiting focus did not fully satisfy fans or coaches.



How bad were they? Worse than 2012? 2011? 2010? And, how do you measure? Are they worse than KU 2012? 2013?



2010 was the worst I remember seeing - early - Vs AFA and Florida State for sure. That was awful. We have had several QB'S that were busts and / or injured since 2009.



Heaps - injured ribs - played scared - same at KU

Nelson - oft injured - turnover prone under heat

Lark - bench - injured when he finally played

Munns - never got off the bench

Hill - injured in 2012 - inconsistent in 2013 - terrible vs UVA and U

Throw in Dayne Crist at ND and KU



And there are a bunch of 4 and 5 star busts. Ok scratch Nelson. He was 2 stars and a bag of grits.



Hill looks pretty good in comparison. But even with Hill, he could be a lot better and OL is part of it.



IMHO a great QB can make his OL look better and a bad QB can make. His OL look worse.



But how do you measure an OL?



Petsonally, I think 2013 was better than 2012 which was better than 2010. I can't remember how bad 2011 was.



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Cougarbib wrote:
The OL was bad in 2013. I heard that from a friend who heard that directly from 2J right after he accepted the job. He knew the cupboard was bare coming out of 2012. BYU recruited accordingly. But that recruiting focus did not fully satisfy fans or coaches.



How bad were they? Worse than 2012? 2011? 2010? And, how do you measure? Are they worse than KU 2012? 2013?



2010 was the worst I remember seeing - early - Vs AFA and Florida State for sure. That was awful. We have had several QB'S that were busts and / or injured since 2009.



Heaps - injured ribs - played scared - same at KU

Nelson - oft injured - turnover prone under heat

Lark - bench - injured when he finally played

Munns - never got off the bench

Hill - injured in 2012 - inconsistent in 2013 - terrible vs UVA and U

Throw in Dayne Crist at ND and KU



And there are a bunch of 4 and 5 star busts. Ok scratch Nelson. He was 2 stars and a bag of grits.



Hill looks pretty good in comparison. But even with Hill, he could be a lot better and OL is part of it.



IMHO a great QB can make his OL look better and a bad QB can make. His OL look worse.



But how do you measure an OL?



Petsonally, I think 2013 was better than 2012 which was better than 2010. I can't remember how bad 2011 was.



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2013 is the worst I have seen the Oline perform in all the years I have watched BYU football. It was not better than 2012. You can go back and watch the Olines from just about every year of BYU football by going to BYUtvsports.com and watch the replay games. If you go back and watch games from the 90's and then look at games more recently you can see the difference. If you watch the oline from 06 and 07 (the one that was trained by Jeff Grimes), you can see the difference. The Oline was decent this year at run blocking (I think that Taysom and Jamaal made them look better than they really were) and were simply terrible at pass blocking. Seriously go back and see the walls that Beck stood behind to throw, go look at the Wall that Sark had to stand behind and throw and you will see the difference. It isn't even close.

Make sure you don't compare a game vs a mediocre defense against a game vs a great defense.



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It does seem that Munns never got off the bench because he never wanted to get off the bench.

SpiffCoug wrote:
It does seem that Munns never got off the bench because he never wanted to get off the bench.

After watching that OL after his mission and being aware of his own lack of mobility he might have been scared to vs the tougher schedules BYU started playing.



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Cougarbib wrote:
Make sure you don't compare a game vs a mediocre defense against a game vs a great defense.



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Is Kansas State's 96 Defense good enough for you? How about watching the 06 utah defense, or TCU? John Beck had 2 sprained ankles in the TCU game and was able to pick apart that defense with precision passing. The oline of 2013 would have gotten him killed in that game.

frdbtr wrote:

Make sure you don't compare a game vs a mediocre defense against a game vs a great defense.



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Is Kansas State's 96 Defense good enough for you? How about watching the 06 utah defense, or TCU? John Beck had 2 sprained ankles in the TCU game and was able to pick apart that defense with precision passing. The oline of 2013 would have gotten him killed in that game.

Ford



I have made it quite clear that the bad OL issue became a big issue in 2010 and has been since. Of course 96 had a better OL. It had one of our best ever.



Since you like to watch reruns, go watch BYU vs AFA and Florida State in weeks 2 and 3 of 2010 if you want to see really bad OL play.



You said 2013 is our worst ever. It isn't. Try comparing tough opposing defenses in the last 4 seasons. Talking about some of our best OL seasons has nothing to support your claim.



I have not seen anyone claim that we have even a decent OL this year. It just is not our worst and you need not look very far back to find contenders. My memory is not good enough to recall OL perf I romance in other down years.



Hence the question. How do you measure an OL performance. We can go back decades and compare PER - rushing yards of runners - receiving yards of receivers - kicking stats of individual players.



But OL is a group of 5 plus TE and RB and WR support on blocking. How can it be measured and compared from season to season. Wondering if there is a model out there.







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I don't know if it plays a factor into our recent OL performance issues or not, but it is something I wonder.



If I recall correctly, there has been a push as of recent to get our OL leaner. The theory is a leaner, faster OL will be able to better block the rise of quick, lean defensive linemen. On paper, I think that makes sense but since BYU has started making this transition (last few years) our OL has sucked and doesn't seem to get any sort of push.



Maybe there's no correlation and maybe it's just me, but I want some big nasty hogs up front that don't give an inch and can knock a defensive linemen on their back. Perhaps going back to the 300lb model would work better for us.

Cougarbib wrote:

Cougarbib wrote:
Make sure you don't compare a game vs a mediocre defense against a game vs a great defense.



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Is Kansas State's 96 Defense good enough for you? How about watching the 06 utah defense, or TCU? John Beck had 2 sprained ankles in the TCU game and was able to pick apart that defense with precision passing. The oline of 2013 would have gotten him killed in that game.

Ford



I have made it quite clear that the bad OL issue became a big issue in 2010 and has been since. Of course 96 had a better OL. It had one of our best ever.



Since you like to watch reruns, go watch BYU vs AFA and Florida State in weeks 2 and 3 of 2010 if you want to see really bad OL play.



You said 2013 is our worst ever. It isn't. Try comparing tough opposing defenses in the last 4 seasons. Talking about some of our best OL seasons has nothing to support your claim.



I have not seen anyone claim that we have even a decent OL this year. It just is not our worst and you need not look very far back to find contenders. My memory is not good enough to recall OL perf I romance in other down years.



Hence the question. How do you measure an OL performance. We can go back decades and compare PER - rushing yards of runners - receiving yards of receivers - kicking stats of individual players.



But OL is a group of 5 plus TE and RB and WR support on blocking. How can it be measured and compared from season to season. Wondering if there is a model out there.







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Look at our red zone efficiency in 10 vs this year and tell me that the 13 line was better.



EDIT: also you original question was asking how we can tell what a bad offensive line looks like so I said to go look at the ones from 96 (which was a question mark going into the season by the way), and the one from 06 both trained by very good line coaches. You then made the comment not to look at the lines against bad defenses so I pointed out 2 very good defenses that those lines went up against to prove my point that I wasn't seeing great oline play against poor defenses. Talk about reading comprehension.

Some worse OL - my opinion.

2004: 3.1 yards per carry, 3.4 sacks allowed per game 123.51 PER

2003: 3.2 yards per carry, 2.7 sacks allowed per game 104.42 PER



But I do think 2013 was pretty anemic.

2013: 5.2 yards per carry, 2.0 sacks allowed per game 116.33 PER

2013 was definitely bad, but certainly not the worst, nor can all of the bluezone problems be laid at their feet. How many times did we see the o-line open up a huge hole for Jamaal Williams into the endzone, but instead of handing it off, Hill chose to go with a keeper and got tackled for little or no gain.

Grimes left after the 07 season, I believe. Players that had been coached by Grimes played 08 and 09, but the Weber effect was starting then. Weber is the reason the OL sucks (sorry for the USU fans). If you want further proof, let's look at USU this year. Last year, they had a great OL. This year, with 5 RETURNING STARTERS, they got their QB hurt, and weren't nearly as good. It took him one year to start to hurt USU.



BYU kept Weber 3 years ago for one reason: Get Ryker Matthews. Matthews may end up being a backup next year, not because he lacks talent, but because he was coached poorly for 2 years by Weber.



I hate giving Anae credit, because he's just not very good, but for about a 4 game stretch, he was calling plays that minimized just how bad our OL was. Then he didn't make further adjustments after teams adjusted (2nd half of BSU onward).

hawkwing wrote:
2013 was definitely bad, but certainly not the worst, nor can all of the bluezone problems be laid at their feet. How many times did we see the o-line open up a huge hole for Jamaal Williams into the endzone, but instead of handing it off, Hill chose to go with a keeper and got tackled for little or no gain.

I think this is one of the things Hill needs to improve on. I also think the play caller needs to recognize that maybe that shouldn't be read option all the time, but sometimes it should be straight give with an option fake.

stuckinbig10country wrote:

2013 was definitely bad, but certainly not the worst, nor can all of the bluezone problems be laid at their feet. How many times did we see the o-line open up a huge hole for Jamaal Williams into the endzone, but instead of handing it off, Hill chose to go with a keeper and got tackled for little or no gain.

I think this is one of the things Hill needs to improve on. I also think the play caller needs to recognize that maybe that shouldn't be read option all the time, but sometimes it should be straight give with an option fake.

I agree. Take the option out of the cards and just call handoffs, we would have been much improved.

stuckinbig10country wrote:
Grimes left after the 07 season, I believe. Players that had been coached by Grimes played 08 and 09, but the Weber effect was starting then. Weber is the reason the OL sucks (sorry for the USU fans). If you want further proof, let's look at USU this year. Last year, they had a great OL. This year, with 5 RETURNING STARTERS, they got their QB hurt, and weren't nearly as good. It took him one year to start to hurt USU.



BYU kept Weber 3 years ago for one reason: Get Ryker Matthews. Matthews may end up being a backup next year, not because he lacks talent, but because he was coached poorly for 2 years by Weber.



I hate giving Anae credit, because he's just not very good, but for about a 4 game stretch, he was calling plays that minimized just how bad our OL was. Then he didn't make further adjustments after teams adjusted (2nd half of BSU onward).

I don't disagree with you here, but it's a bit tough to blame the offensive line for Chuckie getting hurt, since he chose to run and got hurt making a weird doe like hoping maneuver.

hawkwing wrote:
2013 was definitely bad, but certainly not the worst, nor can all of the bluezone problems be laid at their feet. How many times did we see the o-line open up a huge hole for Jamaal Williams into the endzone, but instead of handing it off, Hill chose to go with a keeper and got tackled for little or no gain.

This. Hill's decision making - when to keep the ball and when to give it up and accuracy were the primary culprits of our red zone woes.



Hill was on the player have a red zone carry the last two games (Nevada & Washington). And he had 11 of the 14 carries in the final three games.



Red Zone Rushing

Hill 33 for 169, 6 TDs, 1 Fumble 5.1 ypc

Williams 26 for 84, 5 TDs, 0 Fumble, 3.2 ypc

Lasike 10 for 37, 0 TDs, 0 Fumble, 3.7 ypc

Hine 8 for 10, 0 TDs, 0 Fumble 1.3 ypc

Brown 6 for 27, 1 TD, 0 Fumble, 4.5 ypc

Alisa 5 for 5, 2 TDs, 0 Fumble, 1.0 ypc

hawkwing wrote:
2013 was definitely bad, but certainly not the worst, nor can all of the bluezone problems be laid at their feet. How many times did we see the o-line open up a huge hole for Jamaal Williams into the endzone, but instead of handing it off, Hill chose to go with a keeper and got tackled for little or no gain.

Never once. Maybe you could give some examples so I can go to byutvsports and see it for myself.

frdbtr wrote:

2013 was definitely bad, but certainly not the worst, nor can all of the bluezone problems be laid at their feet. How many times did we see the o-line open up a huge hole for Jamaal Williams into the endzone, but instead of handing it off, Hill chose to go with a keeper and got tackled for little or no gain.

Never once. Maybe you could give some examples so I can go to byutvsports and see it for myself.

It's starting to get like talking to the Heapsites from a few years ago with this insistence that almost nothing is Hill's problem.



Rewatch Nevada and Washington games for a few easy examples.

SpiffCoug wrote:
Some worse OL - my opinion.

2004: 3.1 yards per carry, 3.4 sacks allowed per game 123.51 PER

2003: 3.2 yards per carry, 2.7 sacks allowed per game 104.42 PER



But I do think 2013 was pretty anemic.

2013: 5.2 yards per carry, 2.0 sacks allowed per game 116.33 PER

You see, this is where statistics don't tell the story, in 2003 we lost our starting QB the 3rd game of the season and played about 5 more QB's that year. We had no running game to speak of, Jamaal Williams is a much better running back then anything we had in 2003. In 2004, we had Beck who is not as mobile as Taysom hill and even though I love Tahi and Brown, neither are as good as Jamaal Williams. 2013 we saw the most dynamic running duo of Hill and Williams. Hill made plays when there was none multiple times per game in every game played with the exception of maybe utah. I But yes, those lines were bad. 2004 was also the first year of Jeff Grimes so we know that a good Oline coach can get things turned around.

hawkwing wrote:

hawkwing wrote:
2013 was definitely bad, but certainly not the worst, nor can all of the bluezone problems be laid at their feet. How many times did we see the o-line open up a huge hole for Jamaal Williams into the endzone, but instead of handing it off, Hill chose to go with a keeper and got tackled for little or no gain.

Never once. Maybe you could give some examples so I can go to byutvsports and see it for myself.

It's starting to get like talking to the Heapsites from a few years ago with this insistence that almost nothing is Hill's problem.



Rewatch Nevada and Washington games for a few easy examples.

I am not saying that Hill doesn't need to improve, but I can't see how everyone can insist that BYU's offensive woes are all his fault when it is painfully obvious to two very good former BYU players that BYU's main problem on offense last year is the offensive line (Trevor Matich and Brandon Ogletree). In fact Ogletree before he made his site a pay site outlined every offensive line breakdown and it wasn't pretty. The line did improve but not enough last year.