Is It OK To Talk About Recruiting?

Ever since 2010, it seems like recruiting is the topic you just do not want to bring up anymore. 2010 was the highest rated class ever. Never mind that there were more busts than bangs that came out of it. Many thought ESPN, Independence, tougher opponents, exposure, or just plain good karma.............wait ..............and big wins would take it up from there.



I have really enjoyed the last few seasons. Drove from California for every home game except Idaho State. Almost came for that one.



But, I still prefer those 10 or 11 win seasons vs beatable opponents on a level playing field. But who cares what I prefer. I do not matter. And, I enjoy it either way.



What do recruits prefer? Not sure how to measure it either - except



I just googled it and found our 2014 class rated about 68. Utah was more than 10 spots ahead of us. TCU and BSU were actually behind us. We were right there with Western Kentucky. I noticed the Hilltoppers because I know one of their grad asst coaches and thus realize they have a big name coach - shamed elsewhere - rebuilding his reputation - good recruiter. Hilltoppers. Right above them.



Quite frankly, I do not give a rat's hiny that Alabama has over 3000 points and BYU has under 900. Unavoidable in my book. I was relieved to see USU still near the very bottom of the list. We are still 2nd best - 2nd rate - call it what you want re instate recruiting. At least the insurgent Aggies are still well behind us.



It cannot only be about BYU winning fewer games than we did before 2010. Otherwise those 5-7 Utes would be back there with TCU and BSU or even USU.



But, it bugs me. Year after year U has a higher rated class and gets more players drafted.



These things are related. So feel free to talk about our under - performance there.



Let's not whine that ND has the #10 class again - even with 4 losses.



But there is no excuse to be back at #68 or whatever it was. No excuse.



We are Cinderella. But Cinderella belongs in the Top 40. Especially when fans want a Special Season every 5 years or so.



This is not about failing to land that 5 star recruit. Utah did not get any either. Only 17 programs got any of those 22 players and only 5 programs got more than 1. Somehow UVA got 2.



This is not about failing to land that 4 star recruit. We both got 1 or 2. This is about Utah getting a bunch of 3 star recruits and BYU getting only a handful.



It cannot just be instability in coaching ranks. U has that too.



It could be the inexperience of our position coaches on offense.



What is up here folks - does not bode well for the future.



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The answer is missions. BYU has limited scholarships to offer this year due to returning missionaries. Less bodies in the recruiting class means lower rating.

Nope. Silly. the answer is, we haven't gotten into a BCS conference. Everybody knows that!! sheesh!! Because everything will get better then. :roll:

Missions. Blishons. Maybe fewer, but that is smoke and mirrors to claim its missions. It's a non sequitur.

BYU, even proportional to number of scholies available, are not getting the recruits they need to be in the top 40 let alone a national contender. BYU is what they is. Independence hasn't changed that. Nor will killer schedules. Nor will BCS affiliation.

And Bib you are totally on with this schedule argument. I have agreed historically and this season proved it. Not in football and not in basketball, can BYU athletes handle this tough of schedules. Period.

We see what happened when BYU lost a few key players. We went from a good football team to a marginal football team. BYU doesn't have the depth.

But, I love BYU. I think they should stay independent. And I think they should have schedules that have one or two tough teams and six moderately tough, but winnable games and three easier games.

Watch recruiting this year and next year. Losing doesn't excite recruits. It shatters the suspension of belief that BYU can really hang with the BCS teams, not to mention kills confidence, momentum, and other winning ways. It's like a fool who opens his mouth--it's just better to keep it shut and avoid proving the obvious--BYU is not a national contending team with five losses. With one or two or three at most, BYU is still relevant. AND THATS WHAT EXCITES RECRUITS.

Further - when you only have 15 scholarships, it would seem that BYU could be very picky - All 3 stars and above. Half of BYU's offers have less than 3 stars. Half.



BYU got 6 players with 3 stars. U got 10.



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Cougarbib wrote:
Further - when you only have 15 scholarships, it would seem that BYU could be very picky - All 3 stars and above. Half of BYU'Soffers have less than 3 stars. Half.



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Especially since our 4 star recruits seem to work out so well for us. Frankly, I don't remember the last one that survived BYU all the way to graduation. Maybe Matt Reynolds?

BYU can still sign 25 players even if they only have 7-8 scholarships though I prefer a smaller signing class now rather than signing a bunch 2* guys going on missions. I'd rather get a 2* guy who has proven himself with two years at a JC rather than waste 4-5 years of scholarship on them.



If you rank based on average stars BYU comes out at 57 just ahead of Utah. You're right though BYU needs to be in the low 40s to better compete. Looking forward to 2015 things will get better. We'll see how the new recruiting coordinator pans out. It'll be a while though - it takes forever to see the end results with so many guys going on missions.

frdbtr wrote:

Further - when you only have 15 scholarships, it would seem that BYU could be very picky - All 3 stars and above. Half of BYU'Soffers have less than 3 stars. Half.



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Especially since our 4 star recruits seem to work out so well for us. Frankly, I don't remember the last one that survived BYU all the way to graduation. Maybe Matt Reynolds?

Neither BYU nor Utah get many 4 or 5 star recruits. Nearly zero 5 star and 1 or 2 4 star per year. So that is not the issue. The issue is that U recruited 10 of the 3 star players while BYU just got just 6.



you will find a strong correlation with NFL draftee numbers.



Talent level at speed positions is why Utah has had the edge on BYU. Both teams have adequate, but not elite, coaching



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jvquarterback wrote:
BYU can still sign 25 players even if they only have 7-8 scholarships though I prefer a smaller signing class now rather than signing a bunch 2* guys going on missions. I'd rather get a 2* guy who has proven himself with two years at a JC rather than waste 4-5 years of scholarship on them.



If you rank based on average stars BYU comes out at 57 just ahead of Utah. You're right though BYU needs to be in the low 40s to better compete. Looking forward to 2015 things will get better. We'll see how the new recruiting coordinator pans out. It'll be a while though - it takes forever to see the end results with so many guys going on missions.

The list I found for 2014 shows Utah ranked more than 10 spots ahead - not behind. It shows Utah with basically all 3 star players plus 1 or 2 that had 4. That is the point of the OP. Utah has beaten BYU in recruiting class ranking almost every year lately. Beats us on the field. Puts more players in The NFL. See the pattern? Very strong correlation.



it is not that BYU cannot develop talented players. They are not getting as many.



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Cougarbib wrote:

BYU can still sign 25 players even if they only have 7-8 scholarships though I prefer a smaller signing class now rather than signing a bunch 2* guys going on missions. I'd rather get a 2* guy who has proven himself with two years at a JC rather than waste 4-5 years of scholarship on them.



If you rank based on average stars BYU comes out at 57 just ahead of Utah. You're right though BYU needs to be in the low 40s to better compete. Looking forward to 2015 things will get better. We'll see how the new recruiting coordinator pans out. It'll be a while though - it takes forever to see the end results with so many guys going on missions.

The list I found for 2014 shows Utah ranked more than 10 spots ahead - not behind. It shows Utah with basically all 3 star players plus 1 or 2 that had 4. That is the point of the OP. Utah has beaten BYU in recruiting class ranking almost every year lately. Beats us on the field. Puts more players in The NFL. See the pattern? Very strong correlation.



it is not that BYU cannot develop talented players. They are not getting as many.

Which scouting service are you looking at?

Rivals

BYU (#66) 2.67* average with 2 4* and 6 3* (16 commits)

Utah (#55) 2.67* average with 1 4* and 10 3* (21 commits)



Scout

BYU (#61) 2.69* average with 1 4* and 9 3* (16 commits)

Utah (#55) 2.67* average with 1 4* and 12 3* (21 commits)





I don't see how the sky falling here, especially with the new mission age.

JV. The sky is not falling any more than the last few years. More of the same.



The issue is that U got 10 players with 3 stars. BYU got 6.





The U beats us in recruiting class ranking annually. Same reason. 3 star advantage.

They beat us on the field annually for 4 years.

They put more players in the NFL annually - usually 3 star players.



Those highly correlated trends bother me.



I am totally OK that our recruiting classes pale in comparison to elite programs. We should be able to recruit on PAR with U - PAC 12 affiliation notwithstanding.



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Cougarbib wrote:
JV. The sky is not falling any more than the last few years. More of the same.



The issue is that U got 10 players with 3 stars. BYU got 6.





The U beats us in recruiting class ranking annually. Same reason. 3 star advantage.

They beat us on the field annually for 4 years.

They put more players in the NFL annually - usually 3 star players.



Those highly correlated trends bother me.



I am totally OK that our recruiting classes pale in comparison to elite programs. We should be able to recruit on PAR with U - PAC 12 affiliation notwithstanding.



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JV's got you here bib, those numbers are marginal especially if you look at average star rating and is completely explained by BYU's lack of scholarships(due to missions) available. How many 3 and 4 star recruits are coming off of missions?

frdbtr wrote:

JV. The sky is not falling any more than the last few years. More of the same.



The issue is that U got 10 players with 3 stars. BYU got 6.





The U beats us in recruiting class ranking annually. Same reason. 3 star advantage.

They beat us on the field annually for 4 years.

They put more players in the NFL annually - usually 3 star players.



Those highly correlated trends bother me.



I am totally OK that our recruiting classes pale in comparison to elite programs. We should be able to recruit on PAR with U - PAC 12 affiliation notwithstanding.



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JV's got you here bib, those numbers are marginal especially if you look at average star rating and is completely explained by BYU's lack of scholarships(due to missions) available. How many 3 and 4 star recruits are coming off of missions?

I am very very very late to this conversation. Why are we so off on scholarships? We can give out 10 less scholarships this year? You would think we would have RM's coming home to take up scholarships but also lose a bunch of to the mission, thus making it a wash.



If we are really this short on scholarships then recruiting has been horribly mismanaged.



The disadvantage to BYU vs the U is we have more kids who leave a 2 or 3 star athlete on a mission and come back need time to get their legs back or never make completely and don't achieve their potential. This is a disadvantage we need to get used to.



To back Bib, Utah has outrecruited us. Having several kids higher rated each year is big....say it is 2-4 per year that means they have 8-16 in the program. Not all will turn out, but the probabilities are much higher.



Recruiting is a HUGE piece of the success of a program, it is really half the job of a coach. Talent wins, the correlation is not perfect and there are always outliers but there is a correlation.

frdbtr wrote:

Further - when you only have 15 scholarships, it would seem that BYU could be very picky - All 3 stars and above. Half of BYU'Soffers have less than 3 stars. Half.



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Especially since our 4 star recruits seem to work out so well for us. Frankly, I don't remember the last one that survived BYU all the way to graduation. Maybe Matt Reynolds?

Not sure why this happens, but it can't be all the players fault.....sure some have bigger egos but that is football and the HC should deal with it.



If we an opposing coach recruiting a 4 star LDS kid against BYU I would mention this......

NDCougar wrote:
I am very very very late to this conversation. Why are we so off on scholarships? We can give out 10 less scholarships this year? You would think we would have RM's coming home to take up scholarships but also lose a bunch of to the mission, thus making it a wash.



If we are really this short on scholarships then recruiting has been horribly mismanaged.

I think we're in such a crunch this year in large part to the change in missionary age.

SpiffCoug wrote:

I am very very very late to this conversation. Why are we so off on scholarships? We can give out 10 less scholarships this year? You would think we would have RM's coming home to take up scholarships but also lose a bunch of to the mission, thus making it a wash.



If we are really this short on scholarships then recruiting has been horribly mismanaged.

I think we're in such a crunch this year in large part to the change in missionary age.

Possible but aren't we only 14 mos from the change, shouldn't hit until next fall at the earliest? I understand being off a few as some guys don't go that are expected to or past guys not expect to go but late and timing is off. Being off 10-13 guys seems like a lot.....this is really bad for future (ask USC about their depth, something we already lack).

frdbtr wrote:

JV. The sky is not falling any more than the last few years. More of the same.



The issue is that U got 10 players with 3 stars. BYU got 6.





The U beats us in recruiting class ranking annually. Same reason. 3 star advantage.

They beat us on the field annually for 4 years.

They put more players in the NFL annually - usually 3 star players.



Those highly correlated trends bother me.



I am totally OK that our recruiting classes pale in comparison to elite programs. We should be able to recruit on PAR with U - PAC 12 affiliation notwithstanding.



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JV's got you here bib, those numbers are marginal especially if you look at average star rating and is completely explained by BYU's lack of scholarships(due to missions) available. How many 3 and 4 star recruits are coming off of missions?

Actually he does not Ford. Utah has had a higher ranked recruiting class than BYU every year for a long time. Even in 2010 some services had U slightly ahead. Usually they are significantly ahead. So, that should give you an idea what we have coming back from missions - players from the class 2 years or 3 years earlier that was also ranked worse than U.



They brought in 3 more 3/4 star recruits as they seem to do every year. That builds the player inventory. So four or five years of that depending on red shirts gives them a 12-15 player advantage on the team at any moment.



You cannot make excuses for their class being rated higher every year, them beating us every year, them putting more players in the NFL every year and keep whining about how we have more talent and are better than them but they just whipped up some KW HITT Voodoo and we're better just that 1 day.



Utah has a talent advantage. They have had a talent advantage for several years. They just increased that advantage by 3 more players this year - but that just offsets the talent advantage of the players they lose each year vs the players we lose - so no change overall - status quo - they just maintained the talent advantage they already had.



I get the bump they got from PAC Euphoria, but after 2 losing seasons, there is absolutely no excuse for Utah to out recruit BYU again this year.



If they have a schollie shortage - chop the 8 recruits that are not 3 star or cut some dead wood that will never play a down. Let them walk on.



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SpiffCoug wrote:

I am very very very late to this conversation. Why are we so off on scholarships? We can give out 10 less scholarships this year? You would think we would have RM's coming home to take up scholarships but also lose a bunch of to the mission, thus making it a wash.



If we are really this short on scholarships then recruiting has been horribly mismanaged.

I think we're in such a crunch this year in large part to the change in missionary age.

Exactly

NDCougar wrote:

NDCougar wrote:
I am very very very late to this conversation. Why are we so off on scholarships? We can give out 10 less scholarships this year? You would think we would have RM's coming home to take up scholarships but also lose a bunch of to the mission, thus making it a wash.



If we are really this short on scholarships then recruiting has been horribly mismanaged.

I think we're in such a crunch this year in large part to the change in missionary age.

Possible but aren't we only 14 mos from the change, shouldn't hit until next fall at the earliest? I understand being off a few as some guys don't go that are expected to or past guys not expect to go but late and timing is off. Being off 10-13 guys seems like a lot.....this is really bad for future (ask USC about their depth, something we already lack).

When the age changed a bunch of kids who were waiting to turn 19 submitted immediately and caused an issue with scholorships. That is one of the reasons Bronco went the JC route in last years recruiting was to fill holes created by that, now we are having a bunch of kids get home and have held scholarships for them. The basketball team is in the same boat.

Cougarbib wrote:

Cougarbib wrote:
JV. The sky is not falling any more than the last few years. More of the same.



The issue is that U got 10 players with 3 stars. BYU got 6.





The U beats us in recruiting class ranking annually. Same reason. 3 star advantage.

They beat us on the field annually for 4 years.

They put more players in the NFL annually - usually 3 star players.



Those highly correlated trends bother me.



I am totally OK that our recruiting classes pale in comparison to elite programs. We should be able to recruit on PAR with U - PAC 12 affiliation notwithstanding.



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JV's got you here bib, those numbers are marginal especially if you look at average star rating and is completely explained by BYU's lack of scholarships(due to missions) available. How many 3 and 4 star recruits are coming off of missions?

Actually he does not Ford. Utah has had a higher ranked recruiting class than BYU every year for a long time. Even in 2010 some services had U slightly ahead. Usually they are significantly ahead. So, that should give you an idea what we have coming back from missions - players from the class 2 years or 3 years earlier that was also ranked worse than U.



They brought in 3 more 3/4 star recruits as they seem to do every year. That builds the player inventory. So four or five years of that depending on red shirts gives them a 12-15 player advantage on the team at any moment.



You cannot make excuses for their class being rated higher every year, them beating us every year, them putting more players in the NFL every year and keep whining about how we have more talent and are better than them but they just whipped up some KW HITT Voodoo and we're better just that 1 day.



Utah has a talent advantage. They have had a talent advantage for several years. They just increased that advantage by 3 more players this year - but that just offsets the talent advantage of the players they lose each year vs the players we lose - so no change overall - status quo - they just maintained the talent advantage they already had.



I get the bump they got from PAC Euphoria, but after 2 losing seasons, there is absolutely no excuse for Utah to out recruit BYU again this year.



If they have a schollie shortage - chop the 8 recruits that are not 3 star or cut some dead wood that will never play a down. Let them walk on.



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Can you show me these recruiting services that say the utes have out recruited us all the way back to 2010? I have to see them since I don't follow recruiting as close as some. I thought I had been on the board defending bronco's coaching because others have been saying for years that we out recruit utah significantly every year and yet they still seem to beat us and go to BCS bowls. And I don't want to see adjusted ones that account for the talent that left BYU after signing either, I want to see the actual years recruiting and see that the u is better. (even though the transfers have hurt us badly).

Who has said BYU significantly out recruits Utah???