BYU QBs through 15 career games/starts (updated)

I'll see if I can make a chart with just those w/ 15 starts before they were JRs.

So if Fr/So QBs are expected to start so poorly, and first time QBs who are Jrs and Srs do so much better why do we rush our young QBs in to start? This question isn't about this year, because obviously there were no other options (Munns is not a QB, he's a signal caller).



It seems like we're rushing kids to play QB as Fr and So when they are considerably less ready to play, and for what, so they can play as well as the Jrs played their first season playing by the time they become Jrs?

hawkwing wrote:
So if Fr/So QBs are expected to start so poorly, and first time QBs who are Jrs and Srs do so much better why do we rush our young QBs in to start? This question isn't about this year, because obviously there were no other options (Munns is not a QB, he's a signal caller).



It seems like we're rushing kids to play QB as Fr and So when they are considerably less ready to play, and for what, so they can play as well as the Jrs played their first season playing by the time they become Jrs?

Yep. So hopefully Taysom Hill will allow BYU to be able to get back into the pattern of not playing guys until they've been in the program for at least two years (if not three).



But to answer your question it comes down to kids not wanting to wait. If they're not playing early in their career (especially for QBs) they'll transfer. They're in high school and seeing guys in Jameis Winston and Tim Tebow and Johnny Manzeil and Sam Bradford win the Heisman as freshmen and sophomores (although Manzeil, Bradford & Winston all redshirted, IIRC) and they think they should be playing early as well.



But for each Winston or Manzeil or Bradford there's a Heaps or Olsen or Mustain or Gilbert. Guys who play way too early and way before they're ready but came in with all kinds of hype and never pan out.

SpiffCoug wrote:

So if Fr/So QBs are expected to start so poorly, and first time QBs who are Jrs and Srs do so much better why do we rush our young QBs in to start? This question isn't about this year, because obviously there were no other options (Munns is not a QB, he's a signal caller).



It seems like we're rushing kids to play QB as Fr and So when they are considerably less ready to play, and for what, so they can play as well as the Jrs played their first season playing by the time they become Jrs?

Yep. So hopefully Taysom Hill will allow BYU to be able to get back into the pattern of not playing guys until they've been in the program for at least two years (if not three).



But to answer your question it comes down to kids not wanting to wait. If they're not playing early in their career (especially for QBs) they'll transfer. They're in high school and seeing guys in Jameis Winston and Tim Tebow and Johnny Manzeil and Sam Bradford win the Heisman as freshmen and sophomores (although Manzeil, Bradford & Winston all redshirted, IIRC) and they think they should be playing early as well.



But for each Winston or Manzeil or Bradford there's a Heaps or Olsen or Mustain or Gilbert. Guys who play way too early and way before they're ready but came in with all kinds of hype and never pan out.

Spiff, you say "yep" and "hopefully Taysom Hill will allow BYU to be able to get back in the pattern of not playing guys until they've been in the program for at least two years..." but how does that bode for the forecast right now? Tanner has been on his mission for one football season. He'll miss next year, Taysom's jr. season, then come back after Spring ball iirc and either redshirt Taysom's Sr. and then possibly start as a RS Freshman or not redshirt and start as a Soph. Or, possibly, and this is just me speculating, if Taysom has a great season and is draftable, decides to leave early and Taysom becomes another Heaps or Hall in starting his Freshman year. Am I missing something?



And possibly for another thread, with Hill getting married isn't the likelihood of him leaving for the NFL if he is draftable now heightened by concern for career length, injury risk and money to be made?



Go Cougs!!!

J. Child

Ammon, ID

Ammon Olsen could play a year after Taysom. He was the best QB in preseason practice this year, in terms of throwing.

It remains to be seen if Hill even has an option to leave early for the NFL. And, if he does improve next year and become draft able - buy insurance, and play the senior year. Legacy is priceless.



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Perhaps even Billey Green could play year as a fourth year senior. Also, Tanner, while not officially the did spend one in the program a grey shirt. That could be of some benefit as well.

SpiffCoug wrote:

So if Fr/So QBs are expected to start so poorly, and first time QBs who are Jrs and Srs do so much better why do we rush our young QBs in to start? This question isn't about this year, because obviously there were no other options (Munns is not a QB, he's a signal caller).



It seems like we're rushing kids to play QB as Fr and So when they are considerably less ready to play, and for what, so they can play as well as the Jrs played their first season playing by the time they become Jrs?

Yep. So hopefully Taysom Hill will allow BYU to be able to get back into the pattern of not playing guys until they've been in the program for at least two years (if not three).



But to answer your question it comes down to kids not wanting to wait. If they're not playing early in their career (especially for QBs) they'll transfer. They're in high school and seeing guys in Jameis Winston and Tim Tebow and Johnny Manzeil and Sam Bradford win the Heisman as freshmen and sophomores (although Manzeil, Bradford & Winston all redshirted, IIRC) and they think they should be playing early as well.



But for each Winston or Manzeil or Bradford there's a Heaps or Olsen or Mustain or Gilbert. Guys who play way too early and way before they're ready but came in with all kinds of hype and never pan out.

Sorry, it's just not what you can do in college football anymore, especially at a smaller school. You have to find a stud QB, hope you didn't miss on him, and he has to play minimum of 3 years as the starter (more likely 4). Smaller programs only get so many game changers, and they have to play as much as possible.



So, while the thought of playing only Jrs and Srs at QB is the what we would hope for, can't get away with it in college today. I don't even think most larger programs can pull off going with strictly Jrs and Srs.



BYU missed on Heaps, and that's too bad. It cost them for 3 years. During those 3 years, the player that played also was a 3 year starter.



I am of the belief that players can either play at this level, or they can't. Doesn't matter if they are a Frosh or Sr. For every Gilbert, that actually went on and played pretty well at SMU, there are 4 or 5 Mustains and Heaps that were just never going to be good enough. The idea that players get played too early is just a myth in my mind.



Saying this, had Jake Heaps redshirted and then played, I don't think we would have seen anything different than what we did.

So you think the Taysom Hill QB experiment is already a bust and he'll never get better than this last season? Time to move on and try someone else?

Cougarbib wrote:
It remains to be seen if Hill even has an option to leave early for the NFL. And, if he does improve next year and become draft able - buy insurance, and play the senior year. Legacy is priceless.



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Taysom Hill has already shown enough with his athleticism and arm strength that he could declare for this years draft and someone would take a chance on him. The kid is a game changer and with a decent offensive line would have looked as good or better than anyone in college last year. I know a bunch of you are going to laugh at this but I really don't care. QB's don't run away from Texas' secondary very often and this one did. He showed uncanny accuracy when his receivers were getting open and when the line gave him more than a second to go through his reads. Yes, he has a ton of work to do in order to improve but he is the type of QB that BYU just doesn't get most of the time. It is unbelievable to me that some of us who can only see his stats think that he is a liability to our offense.

hawkwing wrote:
So you think the Taysom Hill QB experiment is already a bust and he'll never get better than this last season? Time to move on and try someone else?

I didn't say players can't get better, but if someone can play, you can tell from the beginning. People will improve, but you could see from Hill's very first play as a Cougar, he would be something special.



I expect Hill to finish as one of the BYU all-time greats, barring another major injury of course.

frdbtr wrote:

It remains to be seen if Hill even has an option to leave early for the NFL. And, if he does improve next year and become draft able - buy insurance, and play the senior year. Legacy is priceless.



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Taysom Hill has already shown enough with his athleticism and arm strength that he could declare for this years draft and someone would take a chance on him. The kid is a game changer and with a decent offensive line would have looked as good or better than anyone in college last year. I know a bunch of you are going to laugh at this but I really don't care. QB's don't run away from Texas' secondary very often and this one did. He showed uncanny accuracy when his receivers were getting open and when the line gave him more than a second to go through his reads. Yes, he has a ton of work to do in order to improve but he is the type of QB that BYU just doesn't get most of the time. It is unbelievable to me that some of us who can only see his stats think that he is a liability to our offense.

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. 9 HAs. I never saw any uncanny accuracy. I saw reasonable accuracy at times. Hill is not stupid and has NFL contacts. I am sure he has gotten advice. That is why you have not heard a peep or eve a hint of a rumor of him even thinking about trying it. Unless he shows improvement reading defenses, anticipating open receivers and throwing to spots, and more consistent touch and location next season, he will get the same advice.



Now what was his per? How did that rank nationally? Not every QB has a great OL. Great QB'S make plays anyway. When TH improves as outlined above, the OL will look better whether defenses have to worry about him hitting receivers consistently and especially hitting someone behind them. As long as Hill keeps waiting until the receiver is open, Hill will never have time to try to hit them deep.



Jake Locker was a very fast running QB - inconsistent passer. I do not have the data, but a Sophomore season PER comparison would be interesting.



I did not say he is a liability. I said he is not NFL ready. Yes he is a fast runner. If Texas had adjusted properly like Utah and the other defenses did, Hil would have never gotten to the Texas secondary.



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Cougarbib wrote:

Cougarbib wrote:
It remains to be seen if Hill even has an option to leave early for the NFL. And, if he does improve next year and become draft able - buy insurance, and play the senior year. Legacy is priceless.



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Taysom Hill has already shown enough with his athleticism and arm strength that he could declare for this years draft and someone would take a chance on him. The kid is a game changer and with a decent offensive line would have looked as good or better than anyone in college last year. I know a bunch of you are going to laugh at this but I really don't care. QB's don't run away from Texas' secondary very often and this one did. He showed uncanny accuracy when his receivers were getting open and when the line gave him more than a second to go through his reads. Yes, he has a ton of work to do in order to improve but he is the type of QB that BYU just doesn't get most of the time. It is unbelievable to me that some of us who can only see his stats think that he is a liability to our offense.

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. 9 HAs. I never saw any uncanny accuracy. I saw reasonable accuracy at times. Hill is not stupid and has NFL contacts. I am sure he has gotten advice. That is why you have not heard a peep or eve a hint of a rumor of him even thinking about trying it. Unless he shows improvement reading defenses, anticipating open receivers and throwing to spots, and more consistent touch and location next season, he will get the same advice.



Now what was his per? How did that rank nationally? Not every QB has a great OL. Great QB'S are plays anyway. When TH improves as outlined above, the OL will look better whether defenses have to worry about him hitting receivers consistently and especially hitting someone behind them. As long as Hill keeps waiting until the receiver is open, Hill will never have time to try to hit them deep.



Jake Locker was a very fast running QB - inconsistent passer. I do not have the data, but a Sophomore season PER comparison would be interesting.



I did not say he is a liability. I said he is not NFL ready. Yes he is a fast runner. If Texas had adjusted properly like Utah and the other defenses did, Hil would have never gotten to the Texas secondary.



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If you will go back and read what I wrote and have some reading comprehension you will notice I did not say he was NFL ready or that he would be a top 10 pick. I said that he has shown enough already that someone would take a chance on him. Hill NEVER had time to throw last year, the most time he got was when he was running around in the backfield trying to see someone open after the line had already broken down. In those cases he should throw the ball away and sometimes he didn't and it cost us sacks. The offensive coaches moved Hill around in the backfield to create time which took half the field away from him most of the time. Tell me how many times you saw Hill able to drop back into a pocket and make a timing throw? I don't remember it happening even once last year. Tell me how many total yards Hill had last year (running and passing). It was over 4500 which is the most since 89 by a QB according to Dave McCann at True blue. You are telling me that a guy who is 6'3" and runs a 4.4 40 with his arm strength wouldn't get a look by a team even at this stage of his development. Coaches in the NFL are pretty confident guys, and that kind of talent would get picked because they would believe they could develop it. If Taysom Hill had played behind the Florida state line, or the Auburn line or the Wisconsin line, or the ND line I can guarantee you he would have been in the Heisman talk. Next year is going to be about the Oline again, just like it has the last few years. If BYU can develop one that gives our QB's time to throw, Taysom hill will look great. If it doesn't, he will struggle again and everyone will be ready to toss him to the curb and try the next guy. If we do though, we will not get any better results. The good news is, I am completely confident that Robert Anae is aware of the reasons why our offense struggled and it wasn't because of Taysom Hill.

Cougarbib wrote:
Jake Locker was a very fast running QB - inconsistent passer. I do not have the data, but a Sophomore season PER comparison would be interesting.

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Jake Locker comparison:

PER:

FR: 105.0 (3 of 12 games above 135, 6 games below 100) (Taysom 124.65; 0 and 0)

SO: 103.6 (0 of 4 games above 135, 1 game below 100) (Taysom 117.12, 6 and 5)

JR: 129.7 (4 of 12 games above 135, 0 games below 100)

SR: 124.2 (4 of 12 games above 135, 4 games below 100)



Rushing:

FR: 986 (10 games above 50 yards, 0 games below 0) (Taysom 223, 2 and 0)

SO: 180 (2 games above 50 yards, 0 games below 0) (Taysom 1344, 11 and 0)

JR: 388 (4 games above 50 yards, 3 games below 0)

SR: 385 (4 games above 50 yards, 1 game below 0)



Accuracy:

FR: 47.3% (1 game above 65%, 7 games below 50%) (Taysom 63.2%, 1 and 0)

SO: 53.8% (1 game above 65%, 1 game below 50%) (Taysom 53.5%, 5 and 4)

JR: 58.2% (2 games above 65%, 0 games below 50%)

SR: 55.4% (1 game above 65%, 3 games belwo 50%)

Jake Locker was a top 10 pick if I remember right.



Edit: Jake Locker was picked 8th in his draft, just verified it. Frankly, he never had a year as good as the one that Hill just had, and Hill did it with less talent around him.

SpiffCoug wrote:

Jake Locker was a very fast running QB - inconsistent passer. I do not have the data, but a Sophomore season PER comparison would be interesting.

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Jake Locker comparison:

PER:

FR: 105.0 (3 of 12 games above 135, 6 games below 100) (Taysom 124.65; 0 and 0)

SO: 103.6 (0 of 4 games above 135, 1 game below 100) (Taysom 117.12, 6 and 5)

JR: 129.7 (4 of 12 games above 135, 0 games below 100)

SR: 124.2 (4 of 12 games above 135, 4 games below 100)



Rushing:

FR: 986 (10 games above 50 yards, 0 games below 0) (Taysom 223, 2 and 0)

SO: 180 (2 games above 50 yards, 0 games below 0) (Taysom 1344, 11 and 0)

JR: 388 (4 games above 50 yards, 3 games below 0)

SR: 385 (4 games above 50 yards, 1 game below 0)



Accuracy:

FR: 47.3% (1 game above 65%, 7 games below 50%) (Taysom 63.2%, 1 and 0)

SO: 53.8% (1 game above 65%, 1 game below 50%) (Taysom 53.5%, 5 and 4)

JR: 58.2% (2 games above 65%, 0 games below 50%)

SR: 55.4% (1 game above 65%, 3 games belwo 50%)

Cougarstats.com shows Hill's efficiency rating at 118.15. Not a big difference but what is the discrepancy?



Hill's 2013 total stats:



Passing: 236-438-14 for 2938 yards and 19 TD's

Rushing 246 Carries for 1344 yards 10 TD's



Total offensive stats 4282 yards and 29 TD's with 14 interceptions. All behind the worst Offensive line and some of the softest recievers BYU has ever had (with the exception of Hoffman and JD falslev when Falslev was healty).

frdbtr wrote:

Cougarbib wrote:
Jake Locker was a very fast running QB - inconsistent passer. I do not have the data, but a Sophomore season PER comparison would be interesting.

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Jake Locker comparison:

PER:

FR: 105.0 (3 of 12 games above 135, 6 games below 100) (Taysom 124.65; 0 and 0)

SO: 103.6 (0 of 4 games above 135, 1 game below 100) (Taysom 117.12, 6 and 5)

JR: 129.7 (4 of 12 games above 135, 0 games below 100)

SR: 124.2 (4 of 12 games above 135, 4 games below 100)



Rushing:

FR: 986 (10 games above 50 yards, 0 games below 0) (Taysom 223, 2 and 0)

SO: 180 (2 games above 50 yards, 0 games below 0) (Taysom 1344, 11 and 0)

JR: 388 (4 games above 50 yards, 3 games below 0)

SR: 385 (4 games above 50 yards, 1 game below 0)



Accuracy:

FR: 47.3% (1 game above 65%, 7 games below 50%) (Taysom 63.2%, 1 and 0)

SO: 53.8% (1 game above 65%, 1 game below 50%) (Taysom 53.5%, 5 and 4)

JR: 58.2% (2 games above 65%, 0 games below 50%)

SR: 55.4% (1 game above 65%, 3 games belwo 50%)

Cougarstats.com shows Hill's efficiency rating at 118.15. Not a big difference but what is the discrepancy?



Hill's 2013 total stats:



Passing: 236-438-14 for 2938 yards and 19 TD's

Rushing 246 Carries for 1344 yards 10 TD's



Total offensive stats 4282 yards and 29 TD's with 14 interceptions. All behind the worst Offensive line and some of the softest recievers BYU has ever had (with the exception of Hoffman and JD falslev when Falslev was healty).

Hmmm. I've got Hill at 237 of 443 for 2942. I'll have to go double check my numbers.

Thanks for the catch. I had mistakenly added all the attempts and completions vs Idaho St to Hill.

frdbtr wrote:
Jake Locker was a top 10 pick if I remember right.



Edit: Jake Locker was picked 8th in his draft, just verified it. Frankly, he never had a year as good as the one that Hill just had, and Hill did it with less talent around him.

Unfortunately for Hill, unless he improves, Locker and Tebow have trained NFL Coaches to realize that if they do not pass very well in college - they do not improve in the NFL.



Also keep in mind that Locker was on a UW team that did not win 1 game vs probably the #1 SOS that year. The closest UW came to winning was VS BYU in Seattle when Locker ran one in and tossed it up in the air and got a penalty and UW missed the EP - blocked iirc - BYU by 1. The UW schedules were nearly as tough every year he was there.



Both Locker and Hill earned their PER vs quality opponents, but Locker played vs a few elite teams in their prime.



Locker did not improve much. If he was a better passer, UW would have won vs 2 QB - but he was a little off.



Hill will differentiate himself from Locker by showing improvement as a passer each year.



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