The Wisconsin game is a reminder that...

...BYU fans who want us to be in the Big 12 need their heads examined.



Look at Utah and TCU. They were a combined 10-5 against us in the MWC, and both those teams had made it to a BCS game twice. Now Utah is 8-16 since joining the PAC-10.2 and TCU is 6-10 is since joining the Big 12.



Does anyone really believe we would have more success playing teams like Wisconsin week in and week out? If you do, it's time to take off the blue goggles. And that goes for all the clowns over on Cougarboard who just love to post "Big 12 >>>>>> Independence."



I've always agreed with Cougarbib about scheduling and yesterday proved again that he's right. Independence and strategic scheduling is the way to go for BYU. In fact, I rescind my former "ideal independent schedule" (which included playing a team from every power conference.0



This is what we need:



1. Utah

2. Utah State

3. Weber State

4. Boise State

5. Hawaii

6. Notre Dame

7. Army

8. Navy

9. Air Force

10.

11.

12.



The first 9 are core games that we should play every year. It includes all regional rivals, Notre Dame, and the academies. The remaining 3 are open ones where we could play whoever.

I would rather be 8-4 in the big 12 than 10 - 2 as an independent. One has the hopes of a playoff, the other has none.



Recruits aren't dumb. We have recruits that are picking Utah over BYU, and it doesn't have anything to do with "access" as we play more games on ESPN related channels than anyone in college football.



It has to do with the chance to be ranked and to have national relevancy. BYU doesn't offer this from football, so it doesn't land big time recruits.

BlueIsBetter wrote:
I would rather be 8-4 in the big 12 than 10 - 2 as an independent. One has the hopes of a playoff, the other has none.



Recruits aren't dumb. We have recruits that are picking Utah over BYU, and it doesn't have anything to do with "access" as we play more games on ESPN related channels than anyone in college football.



It has to do with the chance to be ranked and to have national relevancy. BYU doesn't offer this from football, so it doesn't land big time recruits.

Your point presupposes we would go 8-4 in the Big 12. And do you really think an 8-4 Big 12 team has a chance to get in a playoff (especially a 4 team playoff) or have any more relevancy than a 10-2 independent one?

Obviously I am assuming that the playoff stretch to more than 4 games, which it inevitably will.



Under those scenarios Texas could be taken, Texas Tech could be taken with a record of 8 and 4 if there were more games. I don't think that the Big 12 would be very much harder than the schedule we face this year, year in and out. I think we have a real chance of going 8-4.



We would get a lot better recruits in the Big 12. Our coaching would have to be better, though. Robert Anae couldn't make it to the top in the MWC with NFL talent at every position.



I'd rather go 7-5 in the Big 12 than 10 - 2 as an independent, with a Houston schedule (we already did that for the last decade in the MWC, and never got us where we wanted to go, or the respect we wanted to have).

I am fine either way tbh. We get a lot of variety w/indy. And yes, I do think the Big12 would beat us up pretty bad. Even the KU's can put some athletes on the field to beat you in their house. It really is a different type of ball game up there.

You are right on KingCoug. 8-4 would be a rally good season. Anything better than that and we have a 1996 like team--which comes around once every 15-20 years.

ALOT of 6-6 seasons--just like Utah.

And it doesn't seem like Utahs recruits are getting it done either.

Well the big point is that we would get all the "can't miss" lds athletes. There have been plenty we have m missed on in the l last few years.



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I wonder where the disconnect is when OP points out that TCU and U are enjoying losing seasons after upgrading conferences. Which they are. And then Blue is Better comes on talking about how he would take 8-4 Big 12 over 10-2 Indy. Sheesh - a lot of people might. TCU and U would probably kill to sniff 7-5 or 6-6.



U barely got bowl eligible at 6-6 year 1. U was not bowl eligible year 2. U will either be 6-6 or 5-7 this year. Without Weber State they would be worse. Without BYU and USU and WSU - Utah would have exactly 1 win so farm- Stanford.



TCU started a year later, iirc. Poor showing last year. Worse showing this year. TCU will not be going bowling. Guarantee it.



You could throw in BSU. They only slightly upgraded conferences MWC > WAC most years. And look how BSU has tailed off. Not as badly as U and TCU, but pop BSU into PAC and Big 12 grind and just watch.



And TCU, U, and BSU still have the same coaches.



Throw in BYU for that matter.



Schedule bumps up to top 30ish - BAM - as I projected - 9-4 or 8-5 looking right on target. Idaho State and MTSU made this possible. Replace those with Oregon and ASU and U can tell you how that would go and suddenly 7-6 or 6-7.

BlueIsBetter wrote:
Well the big point is that we would get all the "can't miss" lds athletes. There have been plenty we have m missed on in the l last few years.



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Then why isn't U getting all of them.



This is why. The lights shine brighter in big markets both during the college career and residual value after.



USC education is worth easily $250K more in the job market than U or BYU.

Ditto Stanford.

Ditto the 10 or so elite programs to a lesser differential.



NFL visibility is higher. Guys who want a talking head job will get hired with Texas credentials long before Kansas in football.



There is much more to it than conference affiliation. Every conference has some wannabes and a few royalty.



Do not take my word.



Ask



Kansas

Iowa State

TCU

WVU



And most years, everyone but Texas and Oklahoma.



Sure - Baylor is hot. Someone will pick off their coach and things return to normal quickly



Ask KSU.



Okie State is endowed by T Bone. Maybe they can sustain.



Throw BYU or BSU in the mix - bottom half.

So, because we were competitive in a game against the second best team in the BIG with a sophomore QB and RB and a makeshift O-line, we wouldn't be competitive in the Big XII? I don't follow that logic at all. U and TCU losing shows us one thing: that they were flash in the pan succeses, just like N. Illinois and Fresno this year, but BYU is much more consistent and would be much more competitive than any flavor of the season teams like them. We're a 3-loss team against one of the best schedules in the country during a rebuilding year, we'd do fine in the Big XII.



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Schmoe wrote:
I don't follow that logic at all. U and TCU losing shows us one thing: that they were flash in the pan succeses, just like N. Illinois and Fresno this year, but BYU is much more consistent and would be much more competitive than any flavor of the season teams like them.



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I don't know that TCU and unfortunately the U are flash in the pan success stories. They both had BCS wins, they Utes had it two years several years apart. They would have a much better record right now if they had MWC schedule, same with TCU. Not sure that we have been more consistent than Utah or TCU, I would love to have multiple BCS bowl wins.....we can't compare to the last decade of bowl history at either school, nor in rankings. Neither are one year wonders; TCU had a streak of 9 of 10 years finishing ranked, 3 years in a row in the top 10, Fiesta and Rose bowl victories, with another win in the Ponsietta bowl over an undefeated BSU team........I wish we were that flash in the pan the past decade. :)



I personally believe that BYU would struggle in the PAC-10 or Big 12 this year and a lot of years. I think we would finish in the 6-6 to 7-5 range this year and finish typically 6-6 to 9-3 in great years. If we had the Utes schedule this year we would have a worse record than we currently have. If you include Utah on this years Utah schedule (swapping for BYU since we can't play ourselves) I think we have around 5 losses.....and this is top heavy Pac 12 schedule that would be a typical year.



Recruiting would minimally improve, but I doubt it would swing in a major direction. BYU is unique, has higher standards (aka honor code) and athletes that look at BYU now would be the same athletes looking later. I could see us picking-up a few LDS kids, but recruits still want Bama, USC, ND Oregon etc those are different programs with football on another level (ex: not sure Tuatua or Mama would really change their minds this year). My gripe with Bronco is his inability to land top LDS kids consistently based on a few experiences I know of, I don't see Big 12 changing that much.



Lastly, people are talking down this years team. We have one of our better defenses. I think people will be surprised when we lose KVN and others the S/T drop. Don't sell us short, sure Hill stunk to start the year....he is improved, we have great WR's, TE is strong. People point out the tough schedule we have, yet we forget UT is way down, ND is way down with a ton of injuries, Utah is average at best, we played USU with Keeton hurt the majority of the game, GT is average, Houston is average......point being, quality schedule but not off the charts and not as bad as a Pac 12 nor Big 12 schedule.

We could compete. In the middle. Right now, it would feel great to beat Utah and TCU.



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NDCougar wrote:

I don't follow that logic at all. U and TCU losing shows us one thing: that they were flash in the pan succeses, just like N. Illinois and Fresno this year, but BYU is much more consistent and would be much more competitive than any flavor of the season teams like them.



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I don't know that TCU and unfortunately the U are flash in the pan success stories. They both had BCS wins, they Utes had it two years several years apart. They would have a much better record right now if they had MWC schedule, same with TCU. Not sure that we have been more consistent than Utah or TCU, I would love to have multiple BCS bowl wins.....we can't compare to the last decade of bowl history at either school, nor in rankings. Neither are one year wonders; TCU had a streak of 9 of 10 years finishing ranked, 3 years in a row in the top 10, Fiesta and Rose bowl victories, with another win in the Ponsietta bowl over an undefeated BSU team........I wish we were that flash in the pan the past decade. :)



I personally believe that BYU would struggle in the PAC-10 or Big 12 this year and a lot of years. I think we would finish in the 6-6 to 7-5 range this year and finish typically 6-6 to 9-3 in great years. If we had the Utes schedule this year we would have a worse record than we currently have. If you include Utah on this years Utah schedule (swapping for BYU since we can't play ourselves) I think we have around 5 losses.....and this is top heavy Pac 12 schedule that would be a typical year.



Recruiting would minimally improve, but I doubt it would swing in a major direction. BYU is unique, has higher standards (aka honor code) and athletes that look at BYU now would be the same athletes looking later. I could see us picking-up a few LDS kids, but recruits still want Bama, USC, ND Oregon etc those are different programs with football on another level (ex: not sure Tuatua or Mama would really change their minds this year). My gripe with Bronco is his inability to land top LDS kids consistently based on a few experiences I know of, I don't see Big 12 changing that much.



Lastly, people are talking down this years team. We have one of our better defenses. I think people will be surprised when we lose KVN and others the S/T drop. Don't sell us short, sure Hill stunk to start the year....he is improved, we have great WR's, TE is strong. People point out the tough schedule we have, yet we forget UT is way down, ND is way down with a ton of injuries, Utah is average at best, we played USU with Keeton hurt the majority of the game, GT is average, Houston is average......point being, quality schedule but not off the charts and not as bad as a Pac 12 nor Big 12 schedule.

I couldn't agree more. Well said. Watch what happens to Utah after a couple 6-6 seasons. BYU may actually end up beating able to beat them in 2015. BUt, in fairness, the U lost their money makers (both TEs, Tonga and Murphy were there stud play makers; Wilson a little hurt and now they are not good. I'm afraid BYU has suffered similarly during the Wisc game--Falslev out; Mathews hurt, Mahina hurt, Oline thinned,etc, and Ds can take away THill (no more secrets there) and Hoff and we look average. I hope MM and DM are back for ND or we will SOL. And Hadley loss is huge. KVN is a force when Hadley is in. Now Ds can run away from KVN. Crossing my fingers for at least our O to return and get Ridley up to speed in JDs place.

Sure, and Tennessee State had a great decade in the 70's, Bowling Green and Dartmouth in the 60's, and so on, but nothing from them before or since, just like Utah and TCU and probably BSU.

Schmoe wrote:
Sure, and Tennessee State had a great decade in the 70's, Bowling Green and Dartmouth in the 60's, and so on, but nothing from them before or since, just like Utah and TCU and probably BSU.

BYU too. Similar scheduling. Now Fresno State and N Illinois filled the Cinderella void. USU might have if Keeton stayed healthy.



Now - find one Cinderella team - including BYU - that had even one magical season without a very soft schedule with mostly - almost all - mid major opponents.



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We are playing a tougher schedule this year than Wisconsin is. That kind of crushes the argument. Do you really think we'd do worse against an easier schedule?

small sized fish in a big pond or big fish in small size pond argument doesn't matter until we can consistently beat the Virginia's of the world and figure out how to beat Utah. The way I see it this year our schedule is as close to a typical BCS conference schedule as we've ever had and we've done good with wins over GT, BSU, Tx and Huston, and eventually ND. In my books we should have an 11 and 1 season with one loss to the Bucky's and no one could marginalize our schedule.

IowaCougar wrote:
We are playing a tougher schedule this year than Wisconsin is. That kind of crushes the argument. Do you really think we'd do worse against an easier schedule?

Do you think we would have a better record with the following on the schedule: Arizona State, Ohio State, WI (we will put them since we can't play ourselves) already having been played and MN (8-2) and Penn State (average) still on the schedule. I honestly think we end with a similar record.

ps. I wouldn't trade a win or multiple wins a season for giving up the firesides.

Cougarbib wrote:

Sure, and Tennessee State had a great decade in the 70's, Bowling Green and Dartmouth in the 60's, and so on, but nothing from them before or since, just like Utah and TCU and probably BSU.

BYU too. Similar scheduling. Now Fresno State and N Illinois filled the Cinderella void. USU might have if Keeton stayed healthy.



Now - find one Cinderella team - including BYU - that had even one magical season without a very soft schedule with mostly - almost all - mid major opponents.



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Exactly, we have not done anything to write home about in the 2000's (2001 was the closest we got to sniffing a BCS game).



Am I missing something? We have a solid program, but we are not a powerhouse year in and year out......in fact are we that much better than Utah or TCU in the past 20-25 years? We have a really good year every once in a while but are in lower tier bowls yearly. Having a magical BCS season does not sound bad to me, with lower tier bowls every year. I think we need to improve recruiting and target a great year every recruiting cycle (aka every 4-5 years). It is unrealistic to expect more, but we have yet to make a BCS game or really get too close.



Honestly, would I change our results in the BCS era with TCU or Utah.....YES! I am dang proud of 1984, but that was a long time ago. I am ready for some more results long-term and would love a top 10 finish every 4-5 year....heck once a decade. Having a Big 12/Pac 12 schedule makes that less likely.....I would love to join the Big 12 but know we likely have a tougher path to the BCS.