Mormons and politics. Thoughts?

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Good article

Enjoyable read. Sums up my thought process concerning politics.

Joseph Smith stated that members of the Church had four spheres of influence for which they would be held accountable: Family, Employment, Church, and Political.

That sums it up quite nicely. Every choice we make will determine which side we are on.

I liked the article a great deal. Thanks for sharing.

Hands off my Free Agency!

scott715 wrote:
Hands off my Free Agency!

NO!!! GIMME YOUR GUNS!!!!! :evil:

I'll give both barrels!

Snoscythe: I had not read that statement by Joseph Smith before. Where can I find it?



The only point I'd add is the insight gleaned from Nibley and CS Lewis. Both warned against viewing liberalism vs. conservativism or any politics as what life and our morality are all about...as though Keynesism, gun control, a 36% vs 39.9% top marginal rate, etc are principles of eternal value worth getting riled up over rather than being quite distant from what actually matters: individually striving to over come our selves and become Christlike.

valleus wrote:
Snoscythe: I had not read that statement by Joseph Smith before. Where can I find it?



The only point I'd add is the insight gleaned from Nibley and CS Lewis. Both warned against viewing liberalism vs. conservativism or any politics as what life and our morality are all about...as though Keynesism, gun control, a 36% vs 39.9% top marginal rate, etc are principles of eternal value worth getting riled up over rather than being quite distant from what actually matters: individually striving to over come our selves and become Christlike.

Great point.

valleus wrote:
Snoscythe: I had not read that statement by Joseph Smith before. Where can I find it?



The only point I'd add is the insight gleaned from Nibley and CS Lewis. Both warned against viewing liberalism vs. conservativism or any politics as what life and our morality are all about...as though Keynesism, gun control, a 36% vs 39.9% top marginal rate, etc are principles of eternal value worth getting riled up over rather than being quite distant from what actually matters: individually striving to over come our selves and become Christlike.

Afreakingmen!

valleus wrote:
Snoscythe: I had not read that statement by Joseph Smith before. Where can I find it?



The only point I'd add is the insight gleaned from Nibley and CS Lewis. Both warned against viewing liberalism vs. conservativism or any politics as what life and our morality are all about...as though Keynesism, gun control, a 36% vs 39.9% top marginal rate, etc are principles of eternal value worth getting riled up over rather than being quite distant from what actually matters: individually striving to over come our selves and become Christlike.

This is not my understanding of Mormonism. This sounds like sophistry developed by an academia void of common sense or real life experience. Why is it assumed that the concepts are mutually exclusive? I do not believe one can be Christlike and at the same time side step responsibility and let the world go to crap around them.



Stewardship DOES have eternal ramifications. As in the parable of the talents for example.



I believe we are under a curse because too many people believe that you can be Christlike while at the same time being ignorant, detached and irresponsible about the gifts and stewardship we have been given.



By the way, the scriptures are chocked full with politics and show that politics and spirituality are linked but most people seem to be blind to it.

tww wrote:

Snoscythe: I had not read that statement by Joseph Smith before. Where can I find it?



The only point I'd add is the insight gleaned from Nibley and CS Lewis. Both warned against viewing liberalism vs. conservativism or any politics as what life and our morality are all about...as though Keynesism, gun control, a 36% vs 39.9% top marginal rate, etc are principles of eternal value worth getting riled up over rather than being quite distant from what actually matters: individually striving to over come our selves and become Christlike.

This is not my understanding of Mormonism. This sounds like sophistry developed by an academia void of common sense or real life experience. Why is it assumed that the concepts are mutually exclusive? I do not believe one can be Christlike and at the same time side step responsibility and let the world go to crap around them.



Stewardship DOES have eternal ramifications. As in the parable of the talents for example.



I believe we are under a curse because too many people believe that you can be Christlike while at the same time being ignorant, detached and irresponsible about the gifts and stewardship we have been given.

Nibley is a sophist academic? Apparently you have not read the man. You really should before spouting off like that. There are things much more important than deciding whether President Obama is a socialistic Kenyan. Nibley and others did NOT say the two were mutually exclusive as you slipped in but that there is hierarchy of matters of import. I am surprised you disagree with that.

valleus wrote:
Snoscythe: I had not read that statement by Joseph Smith before. Where can I find it?

I'm glad you asked--I've been citing this for years, but I went back to source it, and it was actually Ezra Taft Benson as a member of the Quorum of the 12 in the April 1963 Conference:

Every Latter-day Saint has spiritual obligations in four basic areas: his home, his church, his job, and his citizenship responsibility. Each of these areas should receive consistent attention although not necessarily equal time. Are we doing our duty in these important fields? What about our citizenship responsibility—our obligation to safeguard our freedom and preserve the Constitution?

snoscythe wrote:

Snoscythe: I had not read that statement by Joseph Smith before. Where can I find it?

I'm glad you asked--I've been citing this for years, but I went back to source it, and it was actually Ezra Taft Benson as a member of the Quorum of the 12 in the April 1963 Conference:

Every Latter-day Saint has spiritual obligations in four basic areas: his home, his church, his job, and his citizenship responsibility. Each of these areas should receive consistent attention although not necessarily equal time. Are we doing our duty in these important fields? What about our citizenship responsibility—our obligation to safeguard our freedom and preserve the Constitution?

Thanks While I disagreed with much of his politics, President Benson was a wonderful prophet and a great example of how he balanced these obligations.

tww wrote:

Snoscythe: I had not read that statement by Joseph Smith before. Where can I find it?



The only point I'd add is the insight gleaned from Nibley and CS Lewis. Both warned against viewing liberalism vs. conservativism or any politics as what life and our morality are all about...as though Keynesism, gun control, a 36% vs 39.9% top marginal rate, etc are principles of eternal value worth getting riled up over rather than being quite distant from what actually matters: individually striving to over come our selves and become Christlike.

This is not my understanding of Mormonism. This sounds like sophistry developed by an academia void of common sense or real life experience. Why is it assumed that the concepts are mutually exclusive? I do not believe one can be Christlike and at the same time side step responsibility and let the world go to crap around them.



Stewardship DOES have eternal ramifications. As in the parable of the talents for example.



I believe we are under a curse because too many people believe that you can be Christlike while at the same time being ignorant, detached and irresponsible about the gifts and stewardship we have been given.



By the way, the scriptures are chocked full with politics and show that politics and spirituality are linked but most people seem to be blind to it.

While I agree that I could certainly do better in "first, seek ye the kingdom of God", there's something to be said about not wawtching our country and communities fall apart. As was pointed out by President Benson by Sno, we do have a responsibility to share the gospel with our neighbors and friends. We also have been warned several times that if we are not living according to the gospel, that we may lose our liberties (Book of Mormon anyone?). This does not mean that we can't defend out liberties while also living a Christ centered life. There have been a number of conference talks which speak of this country being the only real place on the earth that the gospel could be established, and that was made possible through freedom of religion, speech and everything else that our founding fathers embraced and expressed through the constitution and the bill of rights.



Sadly, these rights have been severely eroded since that time. Prophets have lamented the loss of liberties. J. Reuben Clark had a few things to say concerning the topic...

"Is there any one so naive as to think that things will right themselves without a fight? There has been no more fight in us than there is a bunch of sheep, and we have been much like sheep. Freedom was never brought to people on a silver platter, nor maintained with whisk brooms and lavender sprays."



AND



"I say unto you with all the soberness I can, that we stand in danger of losing our liberties, and that once lost, only blood will bring them back; and we of this church will, in order to keep the Church going forward, have more sacrifices to make, and more persecutions to endure than we have yet known. If the conspiracy comes here it will probably come in its full vigor and there will be a lot of vacant places among those who guide and direct, not only this government, but also this Church of ours."



I believe the same liberties that gave rise to the new dispensation of the fullness of the gospel were not meant to be on the earth for only a brief period. Instead, I believe that these same blessings should be enjoyed by all people of all countries. Of course, our first responsibility is to make sure our own house is in order. But, if we do not defend our freedoms, liberties and God-given rights I do think God will hold us responsible.

A few quotes, this time with cites to make sure I don't misattribute again:

Brigham Young, JD 13:149 wrote:
Are we a political people? Yes, very political indeed. But what party do you belong to or would you vote for? I will tell you whom we will vote for: we will vote for the man who will sustain the principles of civil and religious liberty, the man who knows the most and has the best heart and brain for a statesman; and we do not care a farthing whether he is a whig, a democrat, a barnburner, a republican, a new light or anything else. These are our politics.

Brigham Young, JD 7:12-3 wrote:
If the Government knew what the wants of the people were, they would take away the salaries of political demagogues, and stop their running and their stump preaching, from one end of the land to the other, to make proselytes to their cause. This would have a tendency to put an end to party names, to party jealousies, and to party conflicts forever. And the people should concentrate their feelings, their influence, and their faith, to select the best man they can find to be their President, if he has nothing more to eat than potatoes and salt—a man who will not aspire to become greater than the people who appoint him, but be contented to live as they live, be clothed as they are clothed, and in every good thing be one with them.

Joseph Smith Jr., DHC 6:198) wrote:
Unity is power; and when I reflect on the importance of it to the stability of all governments, I am astounded at the silly moves of persons and parties to foment discord in order to ride into power on the current of popular excitement; nor am I less surpised at the stretches of power or restrictions of right which too often appear as acts of legislators to pave the way to some favorite political scheme as destitute of intrinsic merit as a wolf's heart is of the milk of human kindness.

John A. Widtsoe,1943, Evidences and Reconciliations 1:207-8 wrote:
Church leaders feel themselves free and under obligation to discourse on any and every need of the day and of man, no matter under what man-given name it appears. They would be poor leaders if silence was enjoined upon them within any field of human interest. Indeed, the very life of the Church is involved in this free discussion of man’s welfare.



However, let no misconception arise. The Church holds itself aloof from propagandists or parties. In politics, for example, it is neither Republican, Democratic nor “mugwump.” It tests and measures every man-made policy by the eternal, unchanging principles of the gospel. If a proposed policy is in harmony with these principles, it is approved by the Church, if in opposition to gospel principles it is disapproved. The ax hews at untruth no matter where the chips may fall. Whether Democrats wail or Republicans weep is of no consequence. The Church is not in politics, but up to the shoulders in the fight for truth, which is the battle for humanity’s welfare.

President David O. McKay, October 1952 General Conference wrote:
In the Church, there are members who favor the Democratic party. There are other members who sincerely believe and advocate the principles and ideals of the Republican party. The First Presidency, the Council of the Twelve, and other officers who constitute the General Authorities of the Church, preside over members of both political parties.



The President is President of the Church, not favoring in this election either political party. The welfare of all members of the Church is equally considered by the President, his Counselors, and the General Authorities. Both political parties will be treated impartially.... This does not mean however, that error will be condoned. Teachings and ideologies subversive to the fundamental principles of this great Republic, which are contrary to the Constitution of the United States, or which are detrimental to the progress of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, will be condemned, whether advocated by Republicans or Democrats.



We are all united in admonishing the members of the Church to register. We confirm the admonition already given from this pulpit regarding that important duty. We advocate the necessity of all members of the Church showing appreciation of your franchise, your citizenship, by voting, exercising your right to say who shall be your leaders. They become our servants. That is the spirit of the Constitution.

Time and time again modern prophets have disclaimed the idea that the Church supports any candidate or party. Many in the Church think this is a wink-wink-nudge-nudge endorsement of the Republican Party ("If they came out they would lose their tax exemptions!!") as if the Church and the prophets of god were influenced by tax treatments rather than principles.



My $0.02--parties and people change. While a party or candidate may embrace correct principles today, they may deviate down the road. The role of the Prophets is to serve as watchmen on the tower, to teach and warn and let us act for ourselves. They have been pretty clear in recent years that we need to study the candidates and issues prayerfully and then make our own best decisions. I don't think I've ever heard any of the statements from the pulpit encourage us to study the parties...



Where there are principles at stake, the prophets and the Church step into action--see Prop 8 in California and the Utah Compact on immigration. What's interesting is to those who roundly embraced the Church's engagement in Prop 8 become nearly apoplectic and resort to strained logic to explain how they are comfortable on the opposite side of the Utah Compact policy.

BoiseBYU wrote:

valleus wrote:
Snoscythe: I had not read that statement by Joseph Smith before. Where can I find it?



The only point I'd add is the insight gleaned from Nibley and CS Lewis. Both warned against viewing liberalism vs. conservativism or any politics as what life and our morality are all about...as though Keynesism, gun control, a 36% vs 39.9% top marginal rate, etc are principles of eternal value worth getting riled up over rather than being quite distant from what actually matters: individually striving to over come our selves and become Christlike.

This is not my understanding of Mormonism. This sounds like sophistry developed by an academia void of common sense or real life experience. Why is it assumed that the concepts are mutually exclusive? I do not believe one can be Christlike and at the same time side step responsibility and let the world go to crap around them.



Stewardship DOES have eternal ramifications. As in the parable of the talents for example.



I believe we are under a curse because too many people believe that you can be Christlike while at the same time being ignorant, detached and irresponsible about the gifts and stewardship we have been given.

Nibley is a sophist academic? Apparently you have not read the man. You really should before spouting off like that. There are things much more important than deciding whether President Obama is a socialistic Kenyan. Nibley and others did NOT say the two were mutually exclusive as you slipped in but that there is hierarchy of matters of import. I am surprised you disagree with that.

I have read enough of Nibley to know that he is a mixed bag of chips. All of his statements have been subject to change so his earlier writings are not always in agreement with later stuff.



My comment was not a judgement on him or anyone else but an evaluation of the statement and that it falls very close to naive beliefs that I hear expressed quite often.



I fear that we sometimes gravitate to the very thing we preach against, like "all I have to do is believe" kind of stuff.

BroncoBot wrote:

valleus wrote:
Snoscythe: I had not read that statement by Joseph Smith before. Where can I find it?



The only point I'd add is the insight gleaned from Nibley and CS Lewis. Both warned against viewing liberalism vs. conservativism or any politics as what life and our morality are all about...as though Keynesism, gun control, a 36% vs 39.9% top marginal rate, etc are principles of eternal value worth getting riled up over rather than being quite distant from what actually matters: individually striving to over come our selves and become Christlike.

This is not my understanding of Mormonism. This sounds like sophistry developed by an academia void of common sense or real life experience. Why is it assumed that the concepts are mutually exclusive? I do not believe one can be Christlike and at the same time side step responsibility and let the world go to crap around them.



Stewardship DOES have eternal ramifications. As in the parable of the talents for example.



I believe we are under a curse because too many people believe that you can be Christlike while at the same time being ignorant, detached and irresponsible about the gifts and stewardship we have been given.



By the way, the scriptures are chocked full with politics and show that politics and spirituality are linked but most people seem to be blind to it.

While I agree that I could certainly do better in "first, seek ye the kingdom of God", there's something to be said about not wawtching our country and communities fall apart. As was pointed out by President Benson by Sno, we do have a responsibility to share the gospel with our neighbors and friends. We also have been warned several times that if we are not living according to the gospel, that we may lose our liberties (Book of Mormon anyone?). This does not mean that we can't defend out liberties while also living a Christ centered life. There have been a number of conference talks which speak of this country being the only real place on the earth that the gospel could be established, and that was made possible through freedom of religion, speech and everything else that our founding fathers embraced and expressed through the constitution and the bill of rights.



Sadly, these rights have been severely eroded since that time. Prophets have lamented the loss of liberties. J. Reuben Clark had a few things to say concerning the topic...

"Is there any one so naive as to think that things will right themselves without a fight? There has been no more fight in us than there is a bunch of sheep, and we have been much like sheep. Freedom was never brought to people on a silver platter, nor maintained with whisk brooms and lavender sprays."



AND



"I say unto you with all the soberness I can, that we stand in danger of losing our liberties, and that once lost, only blood will bring them back; and we of this church will, in order to keep the Church going forward, have more sacrifices to make, and more persecutions to endure than we have yet known. If the conspiracy comes here it will probably come in its full vigor and there will be a lot of vacant places among those who guide and direct, not only this government, but also this Church of ours."



I believe the same liberties that gave rise to the new dispensation of the fullness of the gospel were not meant to be on the earth for only a brief period. Instead, I believe that these same blessings should be enjoyed by all people of all countries. Of course, our first responsibility is to make sure our own house is in order. But, if we do not defend our freedoms, liberties and God-given rights I do think God will hold us responsible.

This makes more sense to me.