Archived Topic

Blessed are the Geeks ... (or Momentum vs Math)

by jvquarterback · 1/14/2013

Advertisement
J
jvquarterback
Great article in SI which I don't usually read.



Blessed are the Geeks



BYU will never have the competitive advantage in terms of athletes and all that nonsense about out-executing the other team is just that. So here you go.



Anyway the data on soft tissue injuries based on GPS data obtained in practice may be ground breaking in itself.



My SIL will be getting her MBA next year at the Marriott School. Anyone know who she should call to join BM's analytics team?
C
Cougy_Monster
Great article. I'm always fascinated at how statistics and examining the past can effectively predict the future. I remember on my mission listening to some missionaries debate how it was that God "knows" the future to the point that He can reveal it to His prophets and how this essentially robs us of agency since a prophet has already seen our future. I'm not saying statistics is the answer, but if you had an infinite number of previous data points at your disposal you could in theory predict the future of recurring events with essentially 100% accuracy. Its actually kind of depressing to think that a previous person on a previous planet with DNA and circumstances so similar to mine would make decision so similar to mine...and that this may have happened an innumerable amount of times that I am pretty much as predictable as my wife says I am :skeptic:



Now, to the best part of the article....


When he began meeting with NFL coaches a few years ago, Burke realized "that coaches have thought of things that never have dawned on me," he says. "I'm always humbled after talking to them.



"I'll be honest," he says. "I'll be watching a game, and I'll wish that a team won't do what I had recommended because I'm so frightened they won't convert. It scares me to death when I see teams take my advice. I can understand, on the sidelines, with all that pressure, any one of us would like to go into the safe harbor of the tried and true. I understand that.


That statement shows a humble man, who despite his probable brilliance (based on the caliber of people that have hired him) is in check by his acceptance for what he doesn't know. That statement alone makes the rest of the article way more acceptable in my opinion. I'd hire this guy in a heartbeat.



Lastly, I don't know you jvq. But, apparently you are an oncologist. I'm an anesthesiologist practicing interventional pain management, frequently for cancer patients. So in many respects our training and daily tasks are similar which is probably why I find myself defending your positions here on occasion (even before I knew your medical background). In a field where people's lives and/or quality of life is dependent on your decisions you simply HAVE to rely on the published evidence to tip the scale one way or the other. Yes, you have to trust your gut A LOT of the time when evidence falls short but if anyone shows me a doc who finds him/herself frequently "going with his gut" in the face of published data then I'll show you a doc that is a disservice to the community. Whether doctors or patients like to admit it, we (society) simply HAVE to treat populations and not just individuals. If current mortality for a disease is 10%, and a new treatment has a 100% cure rate but side effects will kill 9% then its a NO BRAINER that society must implement the treatment even though it means that we will save the 10 out of 100 who would have died without treatment in exchange for killing 9 others who would have survived the disease but won't survive the treatment. In the end we have 91 survivors instead of 90 and we have "played god" in shifting the deaths from one set of 10 to a probably totally different set of 9. And nobody beforehand knows who will be in the group of 10 or the group of 9. If we knew THAT, then we would orchestrate 100% cure with 0% complications. Unfortunately we aren't that sophisticated yet. Its sad, but those are the decisions we must make. Of course, that's little consolation if its YOUR child that has a severe reaction to a vaccine and has a horrible or lethal side effect -- it doesn't help to think that the vaccine saved millions of other kids when yours is the one that dies from the treatment and probably would have survived the disease. (BTW I fully endorse vaccination, just using it as an example).



In the long run (not necessarily in every circumstance or in the short term) its always better to side with statistics rather than emotions. Hence the standing advice to never be your own doctor and to never treat your family or close friends. I've been there. It's a whole different world. For better or for worse (I think for worse) we are not willing to take risks with people we know personally and love. So doctors will alter tried and true diagnostic and therapeutic procedures for loved ones....and actually lessen the chances of a good outcome. Or docs will go overboard with a family member, ordering so many unnecessary tests that a false positive result comes up and then unnecessary treatments ensue with their attendant side effects and potential adverse events...and in the end the family member has worse care from a loving doctor/dad than they would get from an impartial doctor following the proven data.



I think too often coaches are like doctors treating their family members. They love the kids they coach and hate to see their young men, who have devoted their entire (albeit brief) adult life to a particular sport, fail in front of millions of people. So, the coach makes irrational decisions, hoping that "in this case the outcome will be different than statistics would predict." Sometimes the coach is right. BM was right in the bowl game. But over time statistics win out and individuals lose.



I also think what the guy says in the article about coaches simply playing it safe because they are scared is true too.



Of course, the absolute best coach (and doctor) is one that KNOWS the statistics and follows them with complete understanding and ALSO recognizes when he is in a situation that hasn't been perfectly described by previous data points....and then makes the best educated decision. I think BM did this in the bowl game. Even though there are lots of data to suggest going for it on 4th down is the right decision almost uniformly once you cross the 50 yard line, that data was not collected from a team with the #2 punter in the nation and the #3 defense in the nation and an offense with absolutely no identity. So, I'm gonna give BM the benefit of the doubt and assume he knows the data AND knows its limitations and made the right decision (even though probably what really happened was BM just played it safe and got lucky enough to be dealt a straight flush 8) ).
C
Cougy_Monster
One other "quick" point. Sorry, couldn't resist adding this....



How many of us have been burned by saying (or thinking) "yeah, but that won't happen TO ME"? Parents, or the Church, give us advice and counsel to do this or not do that but we ignore the counsel thinking that we, as an individual, are different than the predictive statistics. We do things or put ourselves in situations not recommended and NOTHING BAD HAPPENS or good things even happen. So we say to ourselves that we can march to the beat of our own drummer and ignore predictive statistics and counsel that are based on others' pasts (aka previous data points). Then one day, WHAM, you learn the hard way why you were counseled and advised in certain ways and you wish you had learned the easy way instead of the hard way. That's the unfortunate interplay of life and predictive statistics every day.



In my opinion that's part of the meaning behind the phrase in D&C 89:3 (about the Word of Wisdom) saying that the Church's health code is "....adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints...." There are PLENTY of people who do not need the counsel of the WOW to live a healthy life. They could have any number of addictive substances around them constantly and they'd be fine. They could drink wine with dinner and never have a problem (kind of like Jesus ;) ) but then there is a part of the population that statistics would predict will suffer immensely from even 1 exposure to any addictive substance. So the counsel is based on previous data points in that subgroup of the population. And since we cannot know who is whom beforehand we all follow the counsel. This of course isn't doctrine and most definitely isn't the entire story by any means. But I work in a profession (pain management) where I deal with more people dependent on substances than any other profession besides a drug lord :angry: and I've seen both ends of the spectrum and anybody who disregards counsel based on other people's previous experience saying "But it doesn't apply in my specific setting" is playing with fire.



And, even though football is only a game (appropriately 5th on a list of priorities), winning is WAY more fun than losing and BYU will see a lot more wins if the coaches can learn how to harness the knowledge contained in lots and lots of data points created from the mistakes of others. The alternative is for us to watch a team that feeds data points into the pool of bad decisions from which others can learn the easy way (aka winning).



So, why hasn't this been uniformly adopted? Because you can overcome statistics with brute strength. The 49ers could line up against Timpview High School (my alma mater) and punt on every 2nd down (if there ever were a 2nd down) all game and still win. So lesser teams will try to emulate those super-talented teams in everything, including play-calling even when it is only effective because shear talent hides inept decisions. Teams with lesser resources MUST claim every advantage possible. This includes BYU.
S
SpiffCoug
Yes, it's a frustration because, to be honest, BYU can't beat or compete with the big boys by playing the big boys' game. You can't run the same offense they do and hope to beat them with execution. BYU needs to think outside the box and do things other teams aren't. Change the game.
Y
Ygridiron4ever
SpiffCoug wrote:
......... BYU needs to think outside the box and do things other teams aren't. Change the game.......

.... Again!
Advertisement
C
Cougy_Monster
SpiffCoug wrote:
Yes, it's a frustration because, to be honest, BYU can't beat or compete with the big boys by playing the big boys' game. You can't run the same offense they do and hope to beat them with execution. BYU needs to think outside the box and do things other teams aren't. Change the game.


Lavell changed the game. That's why he won. No other reason. The question is, how much more is there even to be changed?



Henry Ellsworth, the Patent Office Commissioner in 1843, said to Congress, "The advancement of the arts, from year to year, taxes our credulity and seems to presage the arrival of that period when human improvement must end." He wasn't saying we had reached that point of no more improvement. But he postulated that such a point existed.



I just wonder what sort of game-changing ideas are out there that can effectively level the playing field. Is it really as simple as letting a computer tell you what play to call next? I doubt it because a 2nd computer would simply tell the defense what play to counter with....and then we are left with a War Games type scenario.



If you haven't seen the movie War Games, its a great Cold-War era classic (1983). Matthew Broderick is a young hacker (one of the first hacker movies which should even interest the youngins who think a movie from pre-BYU-national-championship times is bound to be lame). He accidentally hacks into WOPR, a national defense computer system designed to predict the potential outcome(s) from every conceivable sequence of events in thermonuclear war. The computer eventually learns (by playing itself in tic-tac-toe) that if both sides have access to the same data everyone loses. ie, he states the obvious that everyone loses in nuclear war.



Anyway, while I do think predictive statistics has a greater role to play in the future of sports and will greatly level the playing field for teams like BYU against teams like Texas, the kind of innovations that will reshape the game will come from human minds, not computers. Innovations like juicing up the no-huddle offense into a lighting offense with the ball snapped as soon as the ref places the ball -- in the first quarter. Or shifting the shotgun formation into the pistol. Or the 3-3-5 defense, which admittedly isn't the greatest scheme but sure was innovative. Or Mike Leach's adaptation of Doug Scoville's offense into the Air Raid Offense, which is just a joy to watch and has torn a new one in defenses for the last decade. I just hope BYU will somehow turn the corner from sending coaches to clinics to learn how the other guys do it to once again being the source of football innovation.
C
Cougy_Monster
And for all those who criticize the "regular guys" who don't or didn't play college football, saying how ignorant these "fans" are because the guys who really know the game are the ones who played it.....



The best offenses in the NFL and NCAA in the last decade have been the product of guys who never played college football. Mike Leach (Texas Tech), Chip Kelly (Oregon), Charlie Weis (NE Patriots). These are guys who know the game and coach the game even if they don't have the skills/talents to execute it all themselves on the field. Sometimes I think their minds are more prone to innovation since they don't have all the inaccuracies of years and years of football lies told by all their college and NFL coaches filling their heads.



I wonder at the wisdom of making greater players coaches. I mean look at MJ, the greatest athlete of all time. He is the suckiest suck that ever sucked at coaching/managing a team.
C
Cougarfan87
Cougy_Monster wrote:
I remember on my mission listening to some missionaries debate how it was that God "knows" the future to the point that He can reveal it to His prophets and how this essentially robs us of agency since a prophet has already seen our future.


I have come across this idea before. The way I explain it is there is a big difference between knowing and causing. If there is a plate of cookies on the table in the kitchen, and my hungry children go in the kitchen, I know what is going to happen. They are going to eat the cookies. Just because I knew what was going to happen beforehand in a given set of circumstances doesn't mean that I caused it to happen. Foreknowledge does not rob one of agency.



My belief is that God knows what we are going to do in a given set of circumstances because He knows us so well individually that we are predictable. But ultimately, we still make the choices.
S
SpiffCoug
Cougy_Monster wrote:
Yes, it's a frustration because, to be honest, BYU can't beat or compete with the big boys by playing the big boys' game. You can't run the same offense they do and hope to beat them with execution. BYU needs to think outside the box and do things other teams aren't. Change the game.


Lavell changed the game. That's why he won. No other reason. The question is, how much more is there even to be changed?

Unless Lavell won because he was routinely playing atrocious teams year in and year out.
C
Cougy_Monster
SpiffCoug wrote:
SpiffCoug wrote:
Yes, it's a frustration because, to be honest, BYU can't beat or compete with the big boys by playing the big boys' game. You can't run the same offense they do and hope to beat them with execution. BYU needs to think outside the box and do things other teams aren't. Change the game.


Lavell changed the game. That's why he won. No other reason. The question is, how much more is there even to be changed?

Unless Lavell won because he was routinely playing atrocious teams year in and year out.


The BYU coaches before Lavelll couldn't seem to win. Nor could the utes or any other WAC team-- at least consistently.
Advertisement
S
SpiffCoug
Cougy_Monster wrote:
Cougy_Monster wrote:
Yes, it's a frustration because, to be honest, BYU can't beat or compete with the big boys by playing the big boys' game. You can't run the same offense they do and hope to beat them with execution. BYU needs to think outside the box and do things other teams aren't. Change the game.


Lavell changed the game. That's why he won. No other reason. The question is, how much more is there even to be changed?

Unless Lavell won because he was routinely playing atrocious teams year in and year out.


The BYU coaches before Lavelll couldn't seem to win. Nor could the utes or any other WAC team-- at least consistently.

That's actually a great point. I'll concede mine.
J
jvquarterback
I think there is plenty of improvement still left in the game of football in general.



If BYU wants to win more games they will need to look at every facet of the game to see where they are not taking advantage of any competitive advantadge.
M
Mingjai
Cougy_Monster wrote:
Cougy_Monster wrote:
Yes, it's a frustration because, to be honest, BYU can't beat or compete with the big boys by playing the big boys' game. You can't run the same offense they do and hope to beat them with execution. BYU needs to think outside the box and do things other teams aren't. Change the game.


Lavell changed the game. That's why he won. No other reason. The question is, how much more is there even to be changed?

Unless Lavell won because he was routinely playing atrocious teams year in and year out.


The BYU coaches before Lavelll couldn't seem to win. Nor could the utes or any other WAC team-- at least consistently.


Frank Kush's ASU seemed to win pretty consistently... probably because they were playing atrocious teams year in and year out.
C
Cougarbib
SpiffCoug wrote:
SpiffCoug wrote:
Yes, it's a frustration because, to be honest, BYU can't beat or compete with the big boys by playing the big boys' game. You can't run the same offense they do and hope to beat them with execution. BYU needs to think outside the box and do things other teams aren't. Change the game.


Lavell changed the game. That's why he won. No other reason. The question is, how much more is there even to be changed?

Unless Lavell won because he was routinely playing atrocious teams year in and year out.


True - except those few years where the schedule was tougher and the losses more frequent and fans turned on Norm and LaVell saying they were all washed up and or too complacent.



SOS and wins / losses have been closely correlated which seems so logical and intuitive that it asto u nds me how many people just do not get it.



If I were TH and BM, I would schedule just like LaVell did in the seventies and early 80s and take the cuocake criticism and pile up the wins and gaudy stats - because clearly the W/L stands forever and the cupcake factor is forgotten with the passage of time.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">
C
Cougarbib
Mingjai wrote:
SpiffCoug wrote:
SpiffCoug wrote:
Yes, it's a frustration because, to be honest, BYU can't beat or compete with the big boys by playing the big boys' game. You can't run the same offense they do and hope to beat them with execution. BYU needs to think outside the box and do things other teams aren't. Change the game.


Lavell changed the game. That's why he won. No other reason. The question is, how much more is there even to be changed?

Unless Lavell won because he was routinely playing atrocious teams year in and year out.


The BYU coaches before Lavelll couldn't seem to win. Nor could the utes or any other WAC team-- at least consistently.


Frank Kush's ASU seemed to win pretty consistently... probably because they were playing atrocious teams year in and year out.


Exactly. When ASU left it created a void and BYU rose up to become the new ASU while ASU faded to irrelevance in the bigger pond.



BYU, U, and TCU left a big void in the MWC. Note BSU, FSU, and SDSU rising up to fill that void.



Big void left in WAC with BSU, FSU, and Nevada ditching. So USU, LA Tech, and SJSU rise up and filk that void. Epitaph for dead WAC us that it went out as the BEST NON BCS CONFERENCE in it's last year.



That is how it works. There are always cupcakes and someone always rises up to feast on them and get a national ranking.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">
This is an archived topic from the original CougarCorner forum. New replies are not accepted.