Guns

Given the states with a higher percentage of gun ownership have higher rates of gun deaths, e.g you are twice as likely to die by a firearm in Utah than you are NJ (home of Newark, Trenton and Camdon) how do gun advocates justify arguing for less restrictive gun laws. Is defendng your self from the gov a real need, and if so, do guns really accomplish that? To me the answer is no and clearly no.



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I don't believe your given is actually a given. I'd have to check but I think you're numbers might be backwards with higher gun ownership in Utah but a higher rate of homicide death by firearm in New Jersey.



Be careful to not include suicide in gun related deaths. those who are suicidal are out to kill themselves regardless of the manner in which they choose to take their own life.

SpiffCoug wrote:



Be careful to not include suicide in gun related deaths. those who are suicidal are out to kill themselves regardless of the manner in which they choose to take their own life.

That's just not true, only around 2% of those who try to kill themselves by overdose succeed, whereas firearms are 85% effective.



http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/case-fatality/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



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Gun deaths is a misleading statistic. It does not separate deaths of bad guys from their victims. The fact is crime is higher in states with more restrictive gun laws.

cornhole153 wrote:
Given the states with a higher percentage of gun ownership have higher rates of gun deaths, e.g you are twice as likely to die by a firearm in Utah than you are NJ (home of Newark, Trenton and Camdon) how do gun advocates justify arguing for less restrictive gun laws. Is defendng your self from the gov a real need, and if so, do guns really accomplish that? To me the answer is no and clearly no.



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Are the bad guys dying from gun shots by good guys, protecting themselves and your family included in your "given" If so, aren't you really arguing against yourself?

Really Cornhole? I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt on the football thread. but you just achieved "troll" status with this.



Why don't you show us some numbers and we'll talk, if you can even get any evidence.



To me the answer is yes, and a resounding yes. Have you studied history at all, do you see where the USA is headed currently? Do you think when our insurmountable debt is called in and the USA does not have the funds to pay up that everyone is going to still be eating twinkies and expecting the government to take care of them?



Read this:



http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



And then get back to me and tell me why it is so hard for you to understand that guns actually help promote a safe society. Please explain to me why so many of our founding fathers were adamant that a fundamental right to each human being is the ability to defend oneself and why they were so fond of each individual owning a firearm.



Why don't you explain why places like California and Chicago and D.C. continue to have high rates of gun violence despite the extremely restrictive gun laws.



Explain to me this chart:

country, gun deaths, [year data collected] gun ownership

Russia 20.54 [2002] 4,000

Luxembourg 9.01 [2002] c. 0

Hungary 2.22 [2003] 2,000

Finland 1.98 [2004] 39,000

Sweden 1.87 [2001] 24,000

Poland 1.79 [2003] 1,500

France 1.65 [2003] 30,000

Denmark 1.21 [2003] 19,000

Greece 1.12 [2003] 11,000

Switzerland 0.99 [2003] 16,000

Germany 0.93 [2003] 30,000

Norway 0.81 [2001] 36,000

Austria 0.80 [2002] 17,000



I don't know what numbers you are looking at but in Idaho 92% of gun violence is suicides. Do you really feel that these people wouldn't started the car in their garage, found a knife, a rope, a cliff? Do you feel that the remaining % of murders involving a gun wouldn't have been committed with a club, hammer, car, golf club, fire and gasoline, cement and a bridge, bow and arrow?



Ok, I'm done.

In 2011 New Jersey had 269 murders committed by firearm, which accounted for 71% of all murders in the state. A firearm murder rate of 3.07.



Utah on the other hand, which has the best gun laws in the nation had 26 firearm murders, which accounted for 51% of all murders in the state. A firearm murder rate of 0.97%



By all accounts, you are safer in Utah than in New Jersey.



http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

BroncoBot wrote:
Really Cornhole? I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt on the football thread. but you just achieved "troll" status with this.



Why don't you show us some numbers and we'll talk, if you can even get any evidence.

Gun death rates are pretty easy to find. Sorry to dissappoint you.



http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-death-rate-per-100-000" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



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cornhole153 wrote:

Really Cornhole? I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt on the football thread. but you just achieved "troll" status with this.



Why don't you show us some numbers and we'll talk, if you can even get any evidence.

Gun death rates are pretty easy to find. Sorry to dissappoint you.



http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-death-rate-per-100-000" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



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That the chart I figured you were looking at. Did you read the rest of what I wrote? 92% of idaho's deaths were by suicide. Most of those people were going to get the job done anyway. How do you explain kate and Mauser's thesis? Explain D.C. and chicago.

hawkwing wrote:
In 2011 New Jersey had 269 murders committed by firearm, which accounted for 71% of all murders in the state. A firearm murder rate of 3.07.



Utah on the other hand, which has the best gun laws in the nation had 26 firearm murders, which accounted for 51% of all murders in the state. A firearm murder rate of 0.97%



By all accounts, you are safer in Utah than in New Jersey.



http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

All accounts? So those that are killed via gun accidents and suicides are safe?



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cornhole153 wrote:

In 2011 New Jersey had 269 murders committed by firearm, which accounted for 71% of all murders in the state. A firearm murder rate of 3.07.



Utah on the other hand, which has the best gun laws in the nation had 26 firearm murders, which accounted for 51% of all murders in the state. A firearm murder rate of 0.97%



By all accounts, you are safer in Utah than in New Jersey.



http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

All accounts? So those that are killed via gun accidents and suicides are safe?



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not even worth responding. Good luck with life cornhole.

BroncoBot wrote:
Really Cornhole? I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt on the football thread. but you just achieved "troll" status with this.



I don't know what numbers you are looking at but in Idaho 92% of gun violence is suicides. Do you really feel that these people wouldn't started the car in their garage, found a knife, a rope, a cliff? Do you feel that the remaining % of murders involving a gun wouldn't have been committed with a club, hammer, car, golf club, fire and gasoline, cement and a bridge, bow and arrow?



Ok, I'm done.

The study I posted above shows that suicides are way less effective without guns.



Also, aside from hop a long Cassidy, I don't think there are many other bow and arrow suicides?



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BroncoBot wrote:

hawkwing wrote:
In 2011 New Jersey had 269 murders committed by firearm, which accounted for 71% of all murders in the state. A firearm murder rate of 3.07.



Utah on the other hand, which has the best gun laws in the nation had 26 firearm murders, which accounted for 51% of all murders in the state. A firearm murder rate of 0.97%



By all accounts, you are safer in Utah than in New Jersey.



http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

All accounts? So those that are killed via gun accidents and suicides are safe?



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not even worth responding. Good luck with life cornhole.

So you don't factor in the 1,000 or so people killed each year by accidental gun deaths? I believe Utah is one of only a few states were you are more likely to be killed by a gun than in a car accident. Seems crazy to me.



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