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CDHHas any one EVER heard of this??? I have seen where Defense's get a delay of game for barking signals but never on the offense!
Archived Topic
Decieving the D
by CDH · 11/21/2009
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CDHI was at Rice Eccels last year when we ran that same play to Collie and scored!!!
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craigoscarsonRefs are keeping this close, not sure why... that was a ridiculous call
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cougsnspurs4lifeYeah, I thought that was the point... to deceive the d. What could be more deceiving than a triple option play action pass...
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CAFB_04-12The rule was discussed on KSL and CBS, and the only application was the rule that disallows the use of subs or substitution in order to deceive. I remember the play from last year and Max clearly walked off to call what looked like an audible. This year's play was putting the arms up in a "what the hell?" signal to the sidelines. Nobody was subbing or pretending to sub. The call was baloney.
Next time Max should run it by walking to the sidelines pretending to have called a time out. If the wide outs follow, leaving one running back to take the direct snap, it would be a great play.
Next time Max should run it by walking to the sidelines pretending to have called a time out. If the wide outs follow, leaving one running back to take the direct snap, it would be a great play.
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cougsnspurs4lifeHe wasn't even looking at his sideline... lol
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UVACougI think the rule that they called it under was actually this one:
"An obviously unfair act not specifically covered by the rules occurs
during the game (A.R. 4-2-1-II)."
Its on page 128 of the 2009 rule book, here:
http://www.ncaapublications.com/ProductsDetailView.aspx?sku=FR09&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1
Here's an interpretation that seems the closest (the word "deceive" only appears three times in the rulebook):
"Team A is lined up in scrimmage kick formation and has been set
for one second. One of the offensive backs shouts to and motions to
A40, the blocker on the right wing, to get off the field. At the snap,
A40 is in legal motion toward his sideline. A40 turns downfield and
becomes a pass receiver. RULING: Penaltyâ15 yards from the
previous spot. This is a tactic associated with the substitution process
to deceive opponents. " [pg. 241, 2009 rulebook]
The rule is discretionary and lets the ref call an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty for anything they think is unfair.
Even though I think the rule justifies the call, it is bullcrap that they called back a touchdown without ever warning that it would be a penalty (we have used the play in the past). That was the second TD they called back on a bogus penalty. The refs were horrendous today!!!!!!!!!!! Only 2 calls for 25 yards against AF and 7 for 76 yards (and two TDs taken away) for us.
"An obviously unfair act not specifically covered by the rules occurs
during the game (A.R. 4-2-1-II)."
Its on page 128 of the 2009 rule book, here:
Here's an interpretation that seems the closest (the word "deceive" only appears three times in the rulebook):
"Team A is lined up in scrimmage kick formation and has been set
for one second. One of the offensive backs shouts to and motions to
A40, the blocker on the right wing, to get off the field. At the snap,
A40 is in legal motion toward his sideline. A40 turns downfield and
becomes a pass receiver. RULING: Penaltyâ15 yards from the
previous spot. This is a tactic associated with the substitution process
to deceive opponents. " [pg. 241, 2009 rulebook]
The rule is discretionary and lets the ref call an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty for anything they think is unfair.
Even though I think the rule justifies the call, it is bullcrap that they called back a touchdown without ever warning that it would be a penalty (we have used the play in the past). That was the second TD they called back on a bogus penalty. The refs were horrendous today!!!!!!!!!!! Only 2 calls for 25 yards against AF and 7 for 76 yards (and two TDs taken away) for us.
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CannonCougar85Bronco just said on KSL that the refs received a memo 2 weeks ago regarding plays like this. But that it isn't in the rule book. The deception by substitution is a poor interpretation of the rule because A-Max was walking towards the Air Force sideline and B- Max at no point looked like he was doing anything other then calling an audible. Thats a bull crap penalty and I am blown away by it.
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CougarClawThe rest of the game, everyone around me was naming as many improbably calls they could think of that the refs could use to pull more BYU TD's.
Tackling...on the defense...5 yards
illegal throwing motion on the qb....10 yard penalty.
jumping...on the defense...5 yards...
illegal scoring of too many points...on the offense...
"Intent to Deceive" cause us to boo for about 5 entire minutes afterwards. i've never heard such fan disgust before because of a call. It didn't change the outcome of the game, but wow. That's almost as good as the 'delay of game' they called on the defense a few games ago and a few other gems we've been hit with this year.
Let's hope this one is top of the list of Bronco's list of calls to review to the MWC.
we should have had 14 more points in this one due to some very odd penalties.
Tackling...on the defense...5 yards
illegal throwing motion on the qb....10 yard penalty.
jumping...on the defense...5 yards...
illegal scoring of too many points...on the offense...
"Intent to Deceive" cause us to boo for about 5 entire minutes afterwards. i've never heard such fan disgust before because of a call. It didn't change the outcome of the game, but wow. That's almost as good as the 'delay of game' they called on the defense a few games ago and a few other gems we've been hit with this year.
Let's hope this one is top of the list of Bronco's list of calls to review to the MWC.
we should have had 14 more points in this one due to some very odd penalties.
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byutxCougarClaw wrote:
The rest of the game, everyone around me was naming as many improbably calls they could think of that the refs could use to pull more BYU TD's.
Tackling...on the defense...5 yards
illegal throwing motion on the qb....10 yard penalty.
jumping...on the defense...5 yards...
illegal scoring of too many points...on the offense...
I thought for sure they'd throw a flag on the team doctor for illegal practice of medicine when attending to an injured player.
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GuestJust got back from the game. I cannot believe the refs in this game. They made several calls that were intentionally called to keep BYU from scoring. They should immediately be fired.
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blue42They almost threw a flag for how crappy the LES grass is.
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UVACoughawkwing wrote:
Just got back from the game. I cannot believe the refs in this game. They made several calls that were intentionally called to keep BYU from scoring. They should immediately be fired.
I completely agree. Unfortunately, because we ended up winning (and convincingly) they won't even get a slap on the wrist.
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Cougy_MonsterUVACoug wrote:
I think the rule that they called it under was actually this one:
"An obviously unfair act not specifically covered by the rules occurs
during the game (A.R. 4-2-1-II)."
Its on page 128 of the 2009 rule book, here:http://www.ncaapublications.com/ProductsDetailView.aspx?sku=FR09&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1
Here's an interpretation that seems the closest (the word "deceive" only appears three times in the rulebook):
"Team A is lined up in scrimmage kick formation and has been set
for one second. One of the offensive backs shouts to and motions to
A40, the blocker on the right wing, to get off the field. At the snap,
A40 is in legal motion toward his sideline. A40 turns downfield and
becomes a pass receiver. RULING: Penaltyâ15 yards from the
previous spot. This is a tactic associated with the substitution process
to deceive opponents. " [pg. 241, 2009 rulebook]
The rule is discretionary and lets the ref call an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty for anything they think is unfair.
Even though I think the rule justifies the call, it is bullcrap that they called back a touchdown without ever warning that it would be a penalty (we have used the play in the past). That was the second TD they called back on a bogus penalty. The refs were horrendous today!!!!!!!!!!! Only 2 calls for 25 yards against AF and 7 for 76 yards (and two TDs taken away) for us.
We used that exact play described above in high school (Timpview) and it worked like a charm. We'd line up 9 guys real tight on the line for a field goal (nobody would be able to quickly count the actual players) and then act like we had 12 guys on the field. The coach would yell for the one guy to run off and he'd take off toward the sideline and then we'd snap the ball and he'd run up-field......all alone.....wide open....TD.
The best ever is this play though. Talk about deception.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UpMD411bT4
[youtube]8UpMD411bT4[/youtube]
**Admin edited your post... when you use the youtube tabs, only put the part after the ?v= in between the tags. In this case it's the 8UpMD411bT4
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GuestIn regards to the trick play, Mark Lyons said in the postgame show that he taught that play to his kids and they ran it during a game, but a penalty was called for "making a mockery of the game" and they got a 15 yard penalty!
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SpiffCougSo two rules clearly need to be amended next off season. The "deceiving the defense" needs to be changed to include pretending to make an audible. Although how do we know Max WASN'T calling and audible and Willing simply snapped it and thanks to some quick thinking by Unga, we avoided a huge loss.
The other rule that needs to be amended is tackling the RB behind the line of scrimmage on a screen pass. Just because the ball has not crossed the LOS should not give license to tackle offensive players. BYU had a beautiful screen pass set up until AF decided to simply tackle the RB and not allow the pass to be completed. But because it was behind the LOS there could be no pass interference. A forward pass is a forward pass.
And once again, BYU WRs have more pass interference calls in a game than opposing DBs.
The other rule that needs to be amended is tackling the RB behind the line of scrimmage on a screen pass. Just because the ball has not crossed the LOS should not give license to tackle offensive players. BYU had a beautiful screen pass set up until AF decided to simply tackle the RB and not allow the pass to be completed. But because it was behind the LOS there could be no pass interference. A forward pass is a forward pass.
And once again, BYU WRs have more pass interference calls in a game than opposing DBs.
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Cougy_Monsterhawkwing wrote:
In regards to the trick play, Mark Lyons said in the postgame show that he taught that play to his kids and they ran it during a game, but a penalty was called for "making a mockery of the game" and they got a 15 yard penalty!
In junior high gym class we got called for "hot-dogging" during our basketball games all the time. It became a game within the game for us to be hot-dogs.
Airwolf would have hated us. He has a thing for hot-dogs.
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FlorwoodThe next several pauses in the game after the 'deceiving' call the stadium filled with boos. I enjoyed joining in, and had never seen anything like it before.
Too bad back in the day there wasn't an 'intent to deceive' penalty for certain posters.
Too bad back in the day there wasn't an 'intent to deceive' penalty for certain posters.
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UVACougHere's the memo the refs told Bronco they were going off of:
http://cfo.arbitersports.com/FRONT/104777/Site/Files/2009PlaySituationsNo3Nov09.pdf
Look at situation #2. It is not exactly the same, but close enough to justify the call. Especially when the words of the rule cited leave the call completely to the discretion of the ref (an "unfair act not specifically covered by the rules").
Unfortunately looks like the refs were right on this one. The rule and the memo is still a stupid one. I believe Bronco when he says he didn't know about the memo, but they clearly was one. Good thing it didn't matter that much to the outcome of the game.
Look at situation #2. It is not exactly the same, but close enough to justify the call. Especially when the words of the rule cited leave the call completely to the discretion of the ref (an "unfair act not specifically covered by the rules").
Unfortunately looks like the refs were right on this one. The rule and the memo is still a stupid one. I believe Bronco when he says he didn't know about the memo, but they clearly was one. Good thing it didn't matter that much to the outcome of the game.
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CAFB_04-12It doesn't matter if the refs called the penalty in accordance with their internal memo. If the coaches didn't get the memo and didn't have a chance to revise their playbooks then it should not have been called.
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