Archived Topic

Interesting breakdown on Doman's problems

by KingCoug · 9/25/2012

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K
KingCoug
Somebody posted this on another forum. I thought it was rather insightful...







Being an OC is more art than science. One can learn Xs and Os and copy schemes (or parts of schemes) from others, but there are limits to what one can "learn" while on the job. The OC has to develop a scheme, first, and then he has to have a "knack" for calling pays within that scheme. Doman has not shown he has any kind of knack or feel for play-calling. But his play calls mean nothing because he has a scheme that is doomed to fail against the quality teams.



Bronco has come upon the near-perfect defensice scheme for the players he can recruit to BYU -- kids who are 6'2", 235 lbs, and can run and hit; and big strong islanders who can play the front three and free up the LBs by taking on two OL blockers. Add a secondary that can hold its own, and the defense is in business agaisnt quality teams. The key: great LBs. But Doman just doesn't get it.



Doman's play calling won't matter if he persists in trying to establish a run game first. He can'tdo that with the kids BYU can recruit. BYU can get defensive players that can compete against quality teams' offenses in the right scheme (Bronco has shown that can be done), but they cannot get the offensive players that can dominate the line of scrimmage for a run game. BYU cannot use the run to set up the pass -- they don't have (and can't get) the horses to do that against the front seven on a quality team (the Boise State front seven controlled the BYU offense; and Boise State defense will not be as good as Notre Dames').



Failure to recognize that built-in deficiency is a monumental coaching failure. That is precisely why LaVelle is in the Hall of Fame, and deservedly so. On offense, BYU could compete against and occasionally beat real good teams by playing very good defense (like Bronco is doing now) and using the passing game as the great equalizer (what Doman is not doing now). Throw over and past the opposing team's front seven; use big OL to keep them from crushing your passer; and throw the pass-play-book at the defense -- beat them on the outside with backs out of the backfield, over the middle with TEs, on crossing patterns with wide-outs who would catch the ball in traffic, and throw and throw some more and then after the LBs start dropping back to help tackle the receivers, run a draw or two to pick up first downs and keep them all honest. it is not rocket science. But anyone who thinks BYU can run the ball on quality teams to set up the pass is delusional. We can't and won't, and resistance to that reality is futile.



So, agaisnt Oregon State, Notre Dame, and GaTech (and probably Utah State, too, based on how they stopped Wisconsin's famed run game), T. Hill (or Riley if he is still playing) will get beat up running sweeps and options and keepers. Quality LBs will tee him up -- just like ours do to opposing QBs. It won't work. And our RBs will get swallowed by over-powering-D-lineman (who are not gassed from trying to sack the QB almost every play).



So, Doman can try to run all he wants and can scheme all he wants, and become a more accomplished play-caller, too, and will find success doing so againts Idaho State and San Jose State and New Mexico State, but his run-first offense won't work against the good teams. If BYU wants to be Top 15 good, the answer is quite simple: throw the ball 40 times or forget it. (By the way, if they throw it 40 times, and complete anywhere near 65%, they will have a 100 yard rusher almost every game -- nothing sets up the run like a good passing attack -- just ask Mike Leach, whose Texas Tech teams almost always had a 1,000 yard rusher to go with the team's two or three 1,000 yard receivers). Until Doman "re-discovers" the key to BYU offenseive success, we are wasting our time hoping for a Top 15 team that tries to run the ball to set up the pass. Until Doman gets this, his offense will fail against the good teams. His play-calling will be meaningless -- it is first and foremost a scheme problem. And his scheme cannot beat quality teams. And if he can't recruit and then coach-up a QB that can throw, then he needs to be let-go, and Bronco needs to mimic his coaching hero, LaVelle, and go find someone with the acument to get the passing game up and operating, with capable QBs and receivers and TEs and RBs who can run great routes and catch the ball, and big OLmen to protect the passer.



Otherwise, just run the ball three times, dont' turn it over, punt, and let the D stop the other team, and then run three plays, don't turn it over, and punt again, and hope to win 3-0 or 7-6 or 10-7. Boring. But much better than this futile effort to be something the offense can never be.



http://www.cougarblue.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13221&p=113461#p113461" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
G
Gunk
Spot on.



Not much to add other than Doman is a fool and Bronco got sold some snake oil.
L
Lawboy
While I agree with the premise--pass to set up the run--there is some faulty info in there. TTech struggled to get !,000 yard rushers under Leach. Just as BYU did under LaVell most years. If you are schemed to throw it around, then do it, and having running be a supplement to it. In many cases, you check down to teh backs in the flat acts as a type of run game supplement as well.



I would prefer us to throw it 40 times a game than to run it 30 and pass it 30. But this is what Bronco wants, and in many ways he is putting handcufs on what Doman can do with this balanced appraoch. It is puting an emphasis on defense first, then ball control, time of possession to assist a defense that is the change.



This is Bronco ball, make no mistake about it.
G
Gunk
Lawboy wrote:
While I agree with the premise--pass to set up the run--there is some faulty info in there. TTech struggled to get !,000 yard rushers under Leach. Just as BYU did under LaVell most years. If you are schemed to throw it around, then do it, and having running be a supplement to it. In many cases, you check down to teh backs in the flat acts as a type of run game supplement as well.



I would prefer us to throw it 40 times a game than to run it 30 and pass it 30. But this is what Bronco wants, and in many ways he is putting handcufs on what Doman can do with this balanced appraoch. It is puting an emphasis on defense first, then ball control, time of possession to assist a defense that is the change.



This is Bronco ball, make no mistake about it.


Essentially, Bronco is killing the creativity on offense.
L
Lawboy
Gunk wrote:
While I agree with the premise--pass to set up the run--there is some faulty info in there. TTech struggled to get !,000 yard rushers under Leach. Just as BYU did under LaVell most years. If you are schemed to throw it around, then do it, and having running be a supplement to it. In many cases, you check down to teh backs in the flat acts as a type of run game supplement as well.



I would prefer us to throw it 40 times a game than to run it 30 and pass it 30. But this is what Bronco wants, and in many ways he is putting handcufs on what Doman can do with this balanced appraoch. It is puting an emphasis on defense first, then ball control, time of possession to assist a defense that is the change.



This is Bronco ball, make no mistake about it.


Essentially, Bronco is killing the creativity on offense.


Basically, yes. The problem is that this approach also requires that a team take care of the football. Turnovers doom this type of offense because it is not explosive enough to come back. Bronco's team really do not play well when they get behind by 10 or more points, and it is because of the style of play. And if you add turnovers to the mix without generating an equal amount, you lose. And the BYU results back this up.



We are a defense first, conservative offense based team, wher the QB and O is in the place to managae a game, manage time of possession, and thus, manage the opponents points as well.



Like I said, this is Bronco ball.
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C
Cougs_Rule
Thus, as I have tried to articulate, "the death of the Drop back passing game at BYU.
G
Gunk
Lawboy wrote:
Lawboy wrote:
While I agree with the premise--pass to set up the run--there is some faulty info in there. TTech struggled to get !,000 yard rushers under Leach. Just as BYU did under LaVell most years. If you are schemed to throw it around, then do it, and having running be a supplement to it. In many cases, you check down to teh backs in the flat acts as a type of run game supplement as well.



I would prefer us to throw it 40 times a game than to run it 30 and pass it 30. But this is what Bronco wants, and in many ways he is putting handcufs on what Doman can do with this balanced appraoch. It is puting an emphasis on defense first, then ball control, time of possession to assist a defense that is the change.



This is Bronco ball, make no mistake about it.


Essentially, Bronco is killing the creativity on offense.


Basically, yes. The problem is that this approach also requires that a team take care of the football. Turnovers doom this type of offense because it is not explosive enough to come back. Bronco's team really do not play well when they get behind by 10 or more points, and it is because of the style of play. And if you add turnovers to the mix without generating an equal amount, you lose. And the BYU results back this up.



We are a defense first, conservative offense based team, wher the QB and O is in the place to managae a game, manage time of possession, and thus, manage the opponents points as well.



Like I said, this is Bronco ball.


It's a very "Money Ball" approach to football and it drives me nuts - and I'm a huge A's fan.



Get a score or two, play tough D, and hope the other team just gets one less score than you do. As long as you take care of the ball, no worries.



But that approach doesn't work in football like it does in baseball where pitching dictates almost the entire game. In baseball you can focus on pitching and on base percentage and win games. In football, focusing on "execution" or in other words not making mistakes is just an element of the game.
C
Cougarbib
KingCoug wrote:
Somebody posted this on another forum. I thought it was rather insightful...







Being an OC is more art than science. One can learn Xs and Os and copy schemes (or parts of schemes) from others, but there are limits to what one can "learn" while on the job. The OC has to develop a scheme, first, and then he has to have a "knack" for calling pays within that scheme. Doman has not shown he has any kind of knack or feel for play-calling. But his play calls mean nothing because he has a scheme that is doomed to fail against the quality teams.



Bronco has come upon the near-perfect defensice scheme for the players he can recruit to BYU -- kids who are 6'2", 235 lbs, and can run and hit; and big strong islanders who can play the front three and free up the LBs by taking on two OL blockers. Add a secondary that can hold its own, and the defense is in business agaisnt quality teams. The key: great LBs. But Doman just doesn't get it.



Doman's play calling won't matter if he persists in trying to establish a run game first. He can'tdo that with the kids BYU can recruit. BYU can get defensive players that can compete against quality teams' offenses in the right scheme (Bronco has shown that can be done), but they cannot get the offensive players that can dominate the line of scrimmage for a run game. BYU cannot use the run to set up the pass -- they don't have (and can't get) the horses to do that against the front seven on a quality team (the Boise State front seven controlled the BYU offense; and Boise State defense will not be as good as Notre Dames').



Failure to recognize that built-in deficiency is a monumental coaching failure. That is precisely why LaVelle is in the Hall of Fame, and deservedly so. On offense, BYU could compete against and occasionally beat real good teams by playing very good defense (like Bronco is doing now) and using the passing game as the great equalizer (what Doman is not doing now). Throw over and past the opposing team's front seven; use big OL to keep them from crushing your passer; and throw the pass-play-book at the defense -- beat them on the outside with backs out of the backfield, over the middle with TEs, on crossing patterns with wide-outs who would catch the ball in traffic, and throw and throw some more and then after the LBs start dropping back to help tackle the receivers, run a draw or two to pick up first downs and keep them all honest. it is not rocket science. But anyone who thinks BYU can run the ball on quality teams to set up the pass is delusional. We can't and won't, and resistance to that reality is futile.



So, agaisnt Oregon State, Notre Dame, and GaTech (and probably Utah State, too, based on how they stopped Wisconsin's famed run game), T. Hill (or Riley if he is still playing) will get beat up running sweeps and options and keepers. Quality LBs will tee him up -- just like ours do to opposing QBs. It won't work. And our RBs will get swallowed by over-powering-D-lineman (who are not gassed from trying to sack the QB almost every play).



So, Doman can try to run all he wants and can scheme all he wants, and become a more accomplished play-caller, too, and will find success doing so againts Idaho State and San Jose State and New Mexico State, but his run-first offense won't work against the good teams. If BYU wants to be Top 15 good, the answer is quite simple: throw the ball 40 times or forget it. (By the way, if they throw it 40 times, and complete anywhere near 65%, they will have a 100 yard rusher almost every game -- nothing sets up the run like a good passing attack -- just ask Mike Leach, whose Texas Tech teams almost always had a 1,000 yard rusher to go with the team's two or three 1,000 yard receivers). Until Doman "re-discovers" the key to BYU offenseive success, we are wasting our time hoping for a Top 15 team that tries to run the ball to set up the pass. Until Doman gets this, his offense will fail against the good teams. His play-calling will be meaningless -- it is first and foremost a scheme problem. And his scheme cannot beat quality teams. And if he can't recruit and then coach-up a QB that can throw, then he needs to be let-go, and Bronco needs to mimic his coaching hero, LaVelle, and go find someone with the acument to get the passing game up and operating, with capable QBs and receivers and TEs and RBs who can run great routes and catch the ball, and big OLmen to protect the passer.



Otherwise, just run the ball three times, dont' turn it over, punt, and let the D stop the other team, and then run three plays, don't turn it over, and punt again, and hope to win 3-0 or 7-6 or 10-7. Boring. But much better than this futile effort to be something the offense can never be.



http://www.cougarblue.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13221&p=113461#p113461" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


There is a stadium in Provo! Drive by. You are the 2nd person I have made this suggestion to today! Lavell Edwards Stadium! Take note out of respect. Lavell. Lavell. BTW- stadium is named after him even though he had a bad bowl game record and struggled against good teams.



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G
Guest
Cougarbib wrote:
There is a stadium in Provo! Drive by. You are the 2nd person I have made this suggestion to today! Lavell Edwards Stadium! Take note out of respect. Lavell. Lavell. BTW- stadium is named after him even though he had a bad bowl game record and struggled against good teams.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">


Actually, it's LaVell.
C
Cougarbib
hawkwing wrote:
There is a stadium in Provo! Drive by. You are the 2nd person I have made this suggestion to today! Lavell Edwards Stadium! Take note out of respect. Lavell. Lavell. BTW- stadium is named after him even though he had a bad bowl game record and struggled against good teams.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">


Actually, it's LaVell.

Even more correct. I will remind myself twice daily, not only of the spelling, but the capitalization. I will wipe the egg off my face and have it for breakfast.



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K
KingCoug
Cougarbib wrote:
There is a stadium in Provo! Drive by. You are the 2nd person I have made this suggestion to today! Lavell Edwards Stadium! Take note out of respect. Lavell. Lavell. BTW- stadium is named after him even though he had a bad bowl game record and struggled against good teams.


Lavell's problem was that he didn't really take bowl games seriously.
M
mizzoucoug
Lawboy wrote:
Lawboy wrote:
While I agree with the premise--pass to set up the run--there is some faulty info in there. TTech struggled to get !,000 yard rushers under Leach. Just as BYU did under LaVell most years. If you are schemed to throw it around, then do it, and having running be a supplement to it. In many cases, you check down to teh backs in the flat acts as a type of run game supplement as well.



I would prefer us to throw it 40 times a game than to run it 30 and pass it 30. But this is what Bronco wants, and in many ways he is putting handcufs on what Doman can do with this balanced appraoch. It is puting an emphasis on defense first, then ball control, time of possession to assist a defense that is the change.



This is Bronco ball, make no mistake about it.


Essentially, Bronco is killing the creativity on offense.


Basically, yes. The problem is that this approach also requires that a team take care of the football. Turnovers doom this type of offense because it is not explosive enough to come back. Bronco's team really do not play well when they get behind by 10 or more points, and it is because of the style of play. And if you add turnovers to the mix without generating an equal amount, you lose. And the BYU results back this up.



We are a defense first, conservative offense based team, wher the QB and O is in the place to managae a game, manage time of possession, and thus, manage the opponents points as well.



Like I said, this is Bronco ball.


What's sad is that this is also a low-risk offense, but they turn over the ball like it's part of the playbook. At least if we were spreading 5 wide and launching the ball all night I could live with some picks--assuming we are also scoring. But this 17 points/game BS will not fly especially with all of the accompanying fumbles and sheer lack of discipline...with a wanna be and real Bishop on staff no less!!!
B
BoiseBYU
mizzoucoug wrote:
Gunk wrote:
While I agree with the premise--pass to set up the run--there is some faulty info in there. TTech struggled to get !,000 yard rushers under Leach. Just as BYU did under LaVell most years. If you are schemed to throw it around, then do it, and having running be a supplement to it. In many cases, you check down to teh backs in the flat acts as a type of run game supplement as well.



I would prefer us to throw it 40 times a game than to run it 30 and pass it 30. But this is what Bronco wants, and in many ways he is putting handcufs on what Doman can do with this balanced appraoch. It is puting an emphasis on defense first, then ball control, time of possession to assist a defense that is the change.



This is Bronco ball, make no mistake about it.


Essentially, Bronco is killing the creativity on offense.


Basically, yes. The problem is that this approach also requires that a team take care of the football. Turnovers doom this type of offense because it is not explosive enough to come back. Bronco's team really do not play well when they get behind by 10 or more points, and it is because of the style of play. And if you add turnovers to the mix without generating an equal amount, you lose. And the BYU results back this up.



We are a defense first, conservative offense based team, wher the QB and O is in the place to managae a game, manage time of possession, and thus, manage the opponents points as well.



Like I said, this is Bronco ball.


What's sad is that this is also a low-risk offense, but they turn over the ball like it's part of the playbook. At least if we were spreading 5 wide and launching the ball all night I could live with some picks--assuming we are also scoring. But this 17 points/game BS will not fly especially with all of the accompanying fumbles and sheer lack of discipline...with a wanna be and real Bishop on staff no less!!!


It is a very serious charge to accuse someone of wanting to be a Bishop, because we are taught not to aspire for any certain calling. And in any event what the heck does that have to do with scoring points?
C
CrimsonCoug
When Anae came over from TTech Bronco's first year, Lance Reynolds made a big point to emphasize that in Lavell's best years the team had a strong, respected run game and that there was balance between the run or the pass.



I don't think that's using the run to set up the pass or vice versa. It's using both tools to keep opponents from "cheating."



That is ostensibly what Doman said he was trying to get back to, only he wanted to take more shots down field, breaking from Anae who did a lot of dinking and dunking (partly, I believe, in response to fan grumbling about Crowton taking too many shots down field when he could be moving the chains along with short out passes). And Doman had a QB that could make those throws in Jake Heaps--at least from a mechanics perspective.

But then stuff happened (Jake/Riley saga), and my read is that Doman didn't just contract the playbook, he scrapped it. Like most good authors, he wrote a book about what he knew--a playbook with scrambling QB play with a strong running back and passing to keep the D honest. But he benefited by being the exception to LaVell's long history of being pass oriented. Because Doman could still pass some and BYU had the reputation of being pass-happy, it gave him and Staley the perfect distraction to make some big plays and have a great year. And, watching Tebow and Cam Newton and the success of the spread option with dual threat QBs, he believes this is the way of the future. So he's got Hill and Mangum (who gray shirted over Fall camp) all queued up.



But the key for this to work is dominant O lineman in both run and pass, a Staley-esque RB, and a QB that can still make all the throws.



Right now we have none of those.



I'm hopeful about the QB position post Riley, but little else. Maybe Jamaal Williams.



Maybe we can get the personnel required. Maybe. BD better hope the nepotistic hire of his buddy Joe Dupaix turns out results on the RB recruiting trail.
T
tmoney35
CrimsonCoug wrote:
watching Tebow and Cam Newton and the success of the spread option with dual threat QBs, he believes this is the way of the future. So he's got Hill and Mangum (who gray shirted over Fall camp) all queued up..


Here's another big problem I don't see being talked about. Does Doman really think he's running a spread option right now? The option run everyone keeps complaining about is the most simple, boring, easily defended option play there is. Where's the triple option? Nothing is getting spread out and you have to take a least a few shots down field to keep the D honest. I can't remember the last deep throw we've even attempted besides those thrown in desperation.



If you're serious about running the option, throw in a few triple option plays and at least ATTEMPT to throw it deep every once in awhile to give the D something to think about
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