Riley only beats crap teams, per Shoemaker

"Riley is a good quarterback against poor teams and a below average quarterback against good teams"



"The concern is can he avoid interceptions and fumbles to play well enough for wins against Utah State, Oregon State, Notre Dame and Georgia Tech? History says no"



http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765606539/Riley-Nelson-or-Taysom-Hill-A-quarterbacks-perspective.html?pg=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;





Shoemaker pretty much sums up what I think and what the history says on this issue. BYU hitched itself to the wrong horse. And now we reap what we sowed.

Lawboy wrote:
"Riley is a good quarterback against poor teams and a below average quarterback against good teams"



"The concern is can he avoid interceptions and fumbles to play well enough for wins against Utah State, Oregon State, Notre Dame and Georgia Tech? History says no"



http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765606539/Riley-Nelson-or-Taysom-Hill-A-quarterbacks-perspective.html?pg=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;





Shoemaker pretty much sums up what I think and what the history says on this issue. BYU hitched itself to the wrong horse. And now we reap what we sowed.

Shoe. There is an expert.



Who was the right horse?



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Heaps of course. Yes he sucked at times, and played scared, but we still beat all the crap teams with him because they were crap team in 2011. NMSU games shows it, as does end of 2010. Only USU game would be different. 2011 Utah game was awful, but was a blip on his resume with respect to turnovers in a big game compared to Riley's turnover problems vs. TCU, Tulsa, Utah and BSU now.



Heaps played tentative, but took care of the ball. Riley plays fearless, but is reckless as hell with the ball.



Heaps is gone, so it is all academic, but I still think hitching to Riley long term was a mistake. Said it then so this is not hindsight, and this has proven to be accurate. Not that I feel good about it. I;d rather win games, even ugly, than lose games ugly.



Point being, we are paying for it now. That coaching decision is biting us now.

With Heaps we lose USU, SJSU & OSU. Absolutely no question about it. The kid was mentally broken by the USU game. No way he recovers after that.

hawkwing wrote:
With Heaps we lose USU, SJSU & OSU. Absolutely no question about it. The kid was mentally broken by the USU game. No way he recovers after that.

Not if Nelson never transferred to BYU.

Lawboy wrote:
Heaps of course. Yes he sucked at times, and played scared, but we still beat all the crap teams with him because they were crap team in 2011. NMSU games shows it, as does end of 2010. Only USU game would be different. 2011 Utah game was awful, but was a blip on his resume with respect to turnovers in a big game compared to Riley's turnover problems vs. TCU, Tulsa, Utah and BSU now.



Heaps played tentative, but took care of the ball. Riley plays fearless, but is reckless as hell with the ball.



Heaps is gone, so it is all academic, but I still think hitching to Riley long term was a mistake. Said it then so this is not hindsight, and this has proven to be accurate. Not that I feel good about it. I;d rather win games, even ugly, than lose games ugly.



Point being, we are paying for it now. That coaching decision is biting us now.

You and me both. But it doesn't make me feel good either.

This article and the Gordon "d-bag" Monson article are both very good and completely on the money. As soon as we get something like this from Greg Wrubell we will know the end is near.

And yet he recovered to thump a NMSU team that ranked similar to SJSU and Oregon State. And Oregon State was Riley's best game by far as starter against a good opponent. Hawaii was awful so not classified as good. And against OSU he still fumbled once (we rocvered) and threw a pick-6. Riley has thrown more pick-6's than I can ever remember a BYU QB throwing.



But agree on USU game. We lose that one.

byutx wrote:
This article and the Gordon "d-bag" Monson article are both very good and completely on the money. As soon as we get something like this from Greg Wrubell we will know the end is near.

Any time you agree with Gordon "d-bag" Monson, you're probably wrong :D

byutx wrote:

With Heaps we lose USU, SJSU & OSU. Absolutely no question about it. The kid was mentally broken by the USU game. No way he recovers after that.

Not if Nelson never transferred to BYU.

This is truly impossible to know.

Lawboy wrote:
And yet he recovered to thump a NMSU team that ranked similar to SJSU and Oregon State. And Oregon State was Riley's best game by far as starter against a good opponent. Hawaii was awful so not classified as good. And against OSU he still fumbled once (we rocvered) and threw a pick-6. Riley has thrown more pick-6's than I can ever remember a BYU QB throwing.



But agree on USU game. We lose that one.

He was able to thump NMSU after he'd gotten a chance to sit the bench and watch the game from the sidelines. Big difference from going in on a real losing streak.

The "long term" Riley Nelson horse was only for a Year. Heaps took himself out of the equasion. A healthy Nelson would have beat Both utah and BSU these last couple of games. I have said it a bunch of times since the BSU loss but BYU's biggest concern is cleaning up its turnovers, the QB is a main concern with that but I think that our current Freshman is the answer. He should start at least until Riley is healthy again and maybe even after that if he is thriving.

I am not sure that a healthy RIley beat Utah, or pehaps BSU. Because Riley, healthy or not, is a turnover machine is games against decent opponents. And even in games where he llimits turnovers, he gives away pts with them (Oregon State 2011).



RIley;s achilees is his ball security. And it is not just bad, it is awful. Horrific actually. And yet he keeps his job, which is unacceptable. Talk about lack of accountability in a area proven to have adirect impact on wins and losses. This is it.



Again, Bronco is sowing what he reaped in this QB fiasco. Starting in 2010.

Now that I have read the article, I actually agree with it but for different reasons. Hill needs to replace Riley as long as Riley is not 100%. Then a re-evaluation needs to be made and if Hill is performing as well as Riley would be at 100% Riley shouldn't see the field again.

hawkwing wrote:

hawkwing wrote:
With Heaps we lose USU, SJSU & OSU. Absolutely no question about it. The kid was mentally broken by the USU game. No way he recovers after that.

Not if Nelson never transferred to BYU.

This is truly impossible to know.

Well, yeah. But since this is cougarcorner and not a peer-reviewed journal, I feel free to make some assumptions. ;)

Lawboy wrote:
I am not sure that a healthy RIley beat Utah, or pehaps BSU. Because Riley, healthy or not, is a turnover machine is games against decent opponents. And even in games where he llimits turnovers, he gives away pts with them (Oregon State 2011).



RIley;s achilees is his ball security. And it is not just bad, it is awful. Horrific actually. And yet he keeps his job, which is unacceptable. Talk about lack of accountability in a area proven to have adirect impact on wins and losses. This is it.



Again, Bronco is sowing what he reaped in this QB fiasco. Starting in 2010.

A healthy Riley nelson doesn't throw 10 yards short when aiming for the end zone against BSU. A healthy riley nelson outruns the Dlineman that caught him from Behind against BSU. There are other examples as well. He did really well at ball security in the opener when he was healthy, it was something they had worked on in the off season. I don't blame Riley Nelson for the utah and BSU losses, I blame Doman and Bronco for not pulling him when they knew he was not going to be able to perform at 100%.

frdbtr wrote:

I am not sure that a healthy RIley beat Utah, or pehaps BSU. Because Riley, healthy or not, is a turnover machine is games against decent opponents. And even in games where he llimits turnovers, he gives away pts with them (Oregon State 2011).



RIley;s achilees is his ball security. And it is not just bad, it is awful. Horrific actually. And yet he keeps his job, which is unacceptable. Talk about lack of accountability in a area proven to have adirect impact on wins and losses. This is it.



Again, Bronco is sowing what he reaped in this QB fiasco. Starting in 2010.

A healthy Riley nelson doesn't throw 10 yards short when aiming for the end zone against BSU. A healthy riley nelson outruns the Dlineman that caught him from Behind against BSU. There are other examples as well. He did really well at ball security in the opener when he was healthy, it was something they had worked on in the off season. I don't blame Riley Nelson for the utah and BSU losses, I blame Doman and Bronco for not pulling him when they knew he was not going to be able to perform at 100%.

This is irrelevant IMO because Riley is almost always injured. You can't choose to have a healthy Riley any more than you can choose to have an offense that doesn't turn the ball over. That's what he is and that's what we do.

byutx wrote:

Lawboy wrote:
I am not sure that a healthy RIley beat Utah, or pehaps BSU. Because Riley, healthy or not, is a turnover machine is games against decent opponents. And even in games where he llimits turnovers, he gives away pts with them (Oregon State 2011).



RIley;s achilees is his ball security. And it is not just bad, it is awful. Horrific actually. And yet he keeps his job, which is unacceptable. Talk about lack of accountability in a area proven to have adirect impact on wins and losses. This is it.



Again, Bronco is sowing what he reaped in this QB fiasco. Starting in 2010.

A healthy Riley nelson doesn't throw 10 yards short when aiming for the end zone against BSU. A healthy riley nelson outruns the Dlineman that caught him from Behind against BSU. There are other examples as well. He did really well at ball security in the opener when he was healthy, it was something they had worked on in the off season. I don't blame Riley Nelson for the utah and BSU losses, I blame Doman and Bronco for not pulling him when they knew he was not going to be able to perform at 100%.

This is irrelevant IMO because Riley is almost always injured. You can't choose to have a healthy Riley any more than you can choose to have an offense that doesn't turn the ball over. That's what he is and that's what we do.

It's perfectly relevant because I am ascribing blame to the correct group. Riley isn't the issue here, it is the coaches that played him when he wasn't able to perform because of injury. Would they have played any other player who couldn't move because of a back injury just because he insisted he was "fine". I would bet that Bronco wouldn't play KVN if he was too slow because of injury to be able to do his job. It should be the same with Riley, he shouldn't have played in either the utah or the BSU game. They should have prepared Lark or Hill and sent them out.



About the turnovers; Dude, you need to get over this. Coaching fixes turnovers. BYU's offense is having problems with them, it is up to Doman to coach his team in a way that cleans them up. Priority 1 should be to clean up the turnovers because with our defense, we will win out if our offense simply doesn't turn the ball over.

Or it is up to Bronco and Doman to sit Riley because he turns it over far too often. So yes, it is on the coaches. THey continually trot him out there, which allows it to happen. We should not have to wait until he implodes in big games--time and time again--to sit him.



He is what he is--an injury plagued, turnover prone QB. Has been since 2010.

The article is false.

In 2010 and 2011, Jake Heaps consistently failed to meet our opponents defensive averages.



Failed to meet our opponen'ts points allowed against 6 of the 11 opponents he faced in 2010 and against 3 of the 7 in 2011. He did have one game each year where he was within a FG of the averages. He only exceeded the points allowed three times in 2011 and four in 2010.



When it came to passing yards, he failed to meet opponents' passing yards allowed in 5 of 11 games in 2010 and twice in 7 games in 2011. Three times each year he was within 25 yards passing of the averages.



When it came PER, only three times in his career at BYU (all in 2010) did exceed our opponents Defensive PER. 10 times he was below the average and six times he was within 10 points of the Defensive PER.