Archived Topic

An admission of error...RE: TCU

by Mithrandir · 11/16/2009

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Mithrandir
I posted on another board that TCU wasn't "31 points faster/more athletic than BYU" (and proceeded to pin the blowout on coaching). I'm not so sure of this, anymore.



After watching TCU make a pretty quick Utah squad look positively sluggish, I think they are indeed 31 points faster/more athletic than BYU right now. Patterson has done a masterful job of getting his hands on raw, but exceptional athletes and turning them into football players. He's also done a fabulous job of putting his players in positions where they can excell. Where some coaches see a big RB with ordinary speed, Patterson sees an ultra-quick, all-american rush DE. Where some coaches see an undersized CB, Patterson sees a game breaking scatback capable of taking it the distance every time he touches the ball.



In order to become competetive with TCU, and even Utah again, Bronco and company are going to have to emulate (to some degree) what Patterson is doing. This means taking chances on a certain number of raw athletes every year...guys that flew under the radar for any myriad of reasons, but posess that one commodity that BYU so lacks. It also means being willing to shuffle players into positions where they can be exceptional (for instance, Bills and Rich need to be a OLB's, and Aguirre and Logan need to be safeties...just as it was obvious to many that So'oto needed to be a DE).



There is alot of speed and athleticism sitting on the bench. BYU can't afford to do this any longer. Coaches need to put together nickle packages for guys like Buckner and Aguirre and quit trying to cover up speedy wideouts with lumbering MLB's. They needed to get Garret Nicholsen touches at tailback when they saw him languishing at corner (he could have been that 5-10, 180 pound scatback with sub 4.5 speed that BYU never seems to have), and while we lacked a legitimate speed/change of pace back.



BYU simply must field better/faster athletes if they want to have any chance to compete against the best teams even in our own conference. To say nothing of the upper eschelon of the BSC.



What's my point? I guess in a sense it still comes down to coaching (because they're ultimately responsible for recruiting), but I'm no longer convinced that even with a perfect scheme, and a perfect game from our players that we could have beaten TCU. I don't blame Bronco for the blowout, and actually think he's done a great job with the talent he has in the stable. I've re-watched every game this season, and it's become apparent that even teams like UNLV and New Mexico have more team speed than we do (if I'm being honest, Utah State even looked faster than we did). I think when we get our newer, faster guys plugged in, Bronco will look like a genius. If Bronco can pull in a few more speed players (if USU can do it...!) to compliment the blue-chippers we already have in the pipe, I forsee perfect seasons in the not so distant future.
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Schmoe
Why is everyone saying this all of the sudden after TCU beats UTAH!? It's Utah, they barely scraped by against AFA, CSU, SJSU, and Wyoming for crying out loud! Either BYU or Clemson is the best team that TCU has beaten this year. I knew that they were for real when they beat us last year, and nothing has changed (I hoped that we had changed, but apparently we're only marginally better than last year). TCU was very, very good last year, and they are slightly better this year. They could have played with anyone in the country in the past two seasons, they're just that good.
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BYUTIME
Schmoe wrote:
Why is everyone saying this all of the sudden after TCU beats UTAH!? It's Utah, they barely scraped by against AFA, CSU, SJSU, and Wyoming for crying out loud! Either BYU or Clemson is the best team that TCU has beaten this year. I knew that they were for real when they beat us last year, and nothing has changed (I hoped that we had changed, but apparently we're only marginally better than last year). TCU was very, very good last year, and they are slightly better this year. They could have played with anyone in the country in the past two seasons, they're just that good.


I agree. Utah just isn't good at all this year--they've simply the benefited from playing a very weak schedule.
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Mithrandir
Schmoe wrote:
Why is everyone saying this all of the sudden after TCU beats UTAH!? It's Utah, they barely scraped by against AFA, CSU, SJSU, and Wyoming for crying out loud! Either BYU or Clemson is the best team that TCU has beaten this year. I knew that they were for real when they beat us last year, and nothing has changed (I hoped that we had changed, but apparently we're only marginally better than last year). TCU was very, very good last year, and they are slightly better this year. They could have played with anyone in the country in the past two seasons, they're just that good.




I'm saying it now because I know that Utah has pretty decent team speed. I didn't get to see TCU play Clemson. Utah is the first "talented" team I've seen the Horned Frogs play this year (besides BYU). That they made Utah look slow/unathletic was an eye opener.
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Mars
Mithrandir wrote:
...Bronco and company are going to have to emulate (to some degree) what Patterson is doing. This means... being willing to shuffle players into positions where they can be exceptional (for instance, Bills and Rich need to be a OLB's, and Aguirre and Logan need to be safeties... just as it was obvious to many that So'oto needed to be a DE). There is alot of speed and athleticism sitting on the bench. BYU can't afford to do this any longer. Coaches need to put together nickle packages for guys like Buckner and Aguirre and quit trying to cover up speedy wideouts with lumbering MLB's. They needed to get Garret Nicholsen touches at tailback when they saw him languishing at corner (he could have been that 5-10, 180 pound scatback with sub 4.5 speed that BYU never seems to have), and while we lacked a legitimate speed/change of pace back...

Anyone with a high football IQ, like mcgregor, want to take a stab at this idea?
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mcgregor
Mars wrote:
...Bronco and company are going to have to emulate (to some degree) what Patterson is doing. This means... being willing to shuffle players into positions where they can be exceptional (for instance, Bills and Rich need to be a OLB's, and Aguirre and Logan need to be safeties... just as it was obvious to many that So'oto needed to be a DE). There is alot of speed and athleticism sitting on the bench. BYU can't afford to do this any longer. Coaches need to put together nickle packages for guys like Buckner and Aguirre and quit trying to cover up speedy wideouts with lumbering MLB's. They needed to get Garret Nicholsen touches at tailback when they saw him languishing at corner (he could have been that 5-10, 180 pound scatback with sub 4.5 speed that BYU never seems to have), and while we lacked a legitimate speed/change of pace back...

Anyone with a high football IQ, like mcgregor, want to take a stab at this idea?


This is exactly what Patterson does.



First of all, Patterson is willing to develop relationships with coaches at smaller schools, where the talent is just as rich, but not as exposed to larger programs.



When these incredible athletes make it to campus, he takes the fastest kids and makes them corners. He takes the kids that would be corners on most D1 teams, and makes them safeties. He takes safeties and makes them linebackers. Linebackers to DL's. For that matter, running backs to DL (Hughes).



Consider BYU. We've often gone the opposite direction. Safeties have moved to play corner (Johnson, among others). Pendleton was a safety. Hooks, a high school running back, is (was) playing LBer.



Brandon Bradley should be a safety, as should Lee Aguirre. Some of our DL should probably be playing OL.



In the end, BYU does NOT put the best athletes on the field. They put who they consider they best players, with considerable weight given to lack of mental mistakes. The two-edge sword is that there are kids on the defense that realize they are better athletes, but aren't getting playing time.
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Mars
mcgregor wrote:
Brandon Bradley should be a safety, as should Lee Aguirre. Some of our DL should probably be playing OL. In the end, BYU does NOT put the best athletes on the field. They put who they consider they best players, with considerable weight given to lack of mental mistakes. The two-edge sword is that there are kids on the defense that realize they are better athletes, but aren't getting playing time.
Is there any chance a Cornerback (Logan, Bradley, Aguirre, Eason, Buckner) becomes a Safety next season when Johnson and Rich graduate (and with T'eo gone as well)?



Also, what is the double-edged sword with players who think they deserve more playing time? The more athletic kid leaving the program? Are you thinking of any specific examples?
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mcgregor
Mars wrote:

Also, what is the double-edged sword with players who think they deserve more playing time? The more athletic kid leaving the program? Are you thinking of any specific examples? [/color]


First, sometimes Hill can crucify a kid in front of everyone for making mental mistakes. Some kids handle it well, some do not. The people Hill likes the most are those that he doesn't have to correct.



When a more athletic player sees a less athletic player in front of him, it can inspire unhappiness. Likely, he's not the only kid in that position, so now you have a few players that chat about how life is unfair. It's certainly not a good situation, even if it's the kid's poor attitude at fault.



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Another example of the above utilization question is Harvey Unga--it's been mentioned here before, I believe. Utah wanted to use Harvey as a linebacker. He would certainly excel there. BYU, however, uses him as a running back. He hasn't done that bad. ;)



In many programs, however, Harvey would probably be a fullback, and a speed-back would actually be the running back. It's really tough to argue with Harvey's production, but this is what I would have rather seen.



And imagine this for a moment. Tonga is by no stretch a fast player. Harvey's not really, either, but would be more than an adequate fullback. He at FB would be an instant team speed upgrade. Additionally, because he's so big, opponents have to dive at his legs to take him down, which has really impacted his durability. A FB doesn't typically have the same durability issues because of his pad level at the point of attack.



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In some respects, BYU coaches are old-school in the approach to the game. The game has been transitioning from power to speed for a while now. That speed, however, has taken a while to make its way into all the conferences. Certainly, it has taken time to infiltrate the MWC.



Hithertofore, BYU coaches have been successful in the power game. In a way, Crowton forsaw that speed was necessary, but his recruiting approach was an utter failure. When he left, there was a reversion to finding power players. We've had to reconsider, though, and recognize that weight, height, and bench press may not be the most critical factors.



In the meantime, other MWC schools have made efforts to recruit faster players. They haven't been successful at consistently recruiting interior players to match BYU, but they have found outside guys that can compete with ours. So our recent struggles aren't that we aren't that good, but that other schools are getting better.



2 years. If BYU isn't a complete package in 2 years, then I'm not sure we ever will be.



BUT . . . . . . . .



It's my personal opinion that in 2 years, Bronco is going to prove that he can put a more successfully consistent product on the field than Lavell ever did, or could. AND . . . AND . . . a more consistent product than Utah's every-4-years BCS program.



Good day, Gentlemen. Sorry for the long post, and thanks for reading.
Q
Qman
Hmm this is a great post.
M
Mars


Thanks mcgregor. I couldn't have asked for a more complete answer.



So... who would Unga have been starting in front of at LB? Bauman?
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Mithrandir
Mars wrote:
So... who would Unga have been starting in front of at LB? Bauman?


Unga would be starting in front of everybody...even Pendleton. And Tonga would probably be the best middle linebacker on the roster.



This is another thing that Patterson does brilliantly. He's not afraid to commit many of his best athletes to defensive positions. Like I said...there is alot of speed sitting on the bench for Bronco right now. As rare a commodity as speed at BYU, I simply wouldn't let somebody like Stephen Covey languish on the scout team. He's exactly the same size as Scott Johnson, but much faster. He's be getting reps at safety if I were the coach. I'd also think about shuffling Malosi Te'o to safety.



I'd move some combination of Aguirre, Logan, Eason and Buckner to Safety, and move Bills and Rich to OLB (seriously...Rich is 6'3" 235...he needs to be playing OLB). I'd be playing Pendleton at MLB.



A secondary consisting of Bradley, Logan, Buckner and Aguirre is vastly quicker than our curent secondary; and a linebacking corps consisting of Rich, Pendleton, Clawson and Bills is much faster than our current linebacking corps. We have more speed than we're utilizing.
M
Mars


I read today that Braden Brown, a former HS TE, will stay at OL for the foreseeable future at BYU after playing in the unit against New Mexico. Is this an example of playing smaller, faster guys (TE to OL), or is this more of a "typical" HS to college transition?
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mcgregor
Mars wrote:


I read today that Braden Brown, a former HS TE, will stay at OL for the foreseeable future at BYU after playing in the unit against New Mexico. Is this an example of playing smaller, faster guys (TE to OL), or is this more of a "typical" HS to college transition?


This is an interesting question. Anae's education suggests that you want faster linemen. The scheme asks the linemen to play in space. The line splits out in order to isolate the DL. Then, the running backs read the DL to pick a running lane. Thus, all you need from your OL is a guy that's fast enough to stay in between the DL and the RB.



But BYU doesn't have a true zone read RB.



So BYU pulled in the line a bit, and reverted back to the Big Ten theory of muscling your way into yardage. But teams like TCU have proved that vastly superior outside speed cannot be effectively addressed with a 330 lb lineman. So I think the Braden Brown move may be a recognition of that fact.
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mcgregor
One more example that comes to mind . . .



Tayo Fabaluje has been recruited as a DL. I would like to think he will be an excellent player there, and has a chance of making an impact as a freshman. He has the size and strength necessary, but what makes the mouth water is that he runs a 4.7 40.



That being said, TCU was recruiting him as a LINEMAN. That means two things:



1. TCU's OL is fast.



2. To be a TCU DL, you have to be even faster.



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Lots of people talk about the speed factor, and think about skill players. To me, that's not nearly as important as speed on the inside positions: the OL, the DL, and the MLBers. We are desperately slow at those positions.
S
snoscythe
mcgregor wrote:
2. To be a TCU DL, you have to be even faster.


A number of Patterson's star DE's were RBs and LBs in high-school
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Lawboy
This all goes back to Jimmy Johnson, and his stint as the Cowboys head coach. When he was at UMiami, he saw how speed could beat a team. He took that to the NFL in the late 80's, and produced 3 SB teams in the 90s. And the NFL has not been the same since. It is all about speed--at every position, not just the so-called skill positions. This has filtered down to CFB as well, and the best teams can run at every position. The SEC and PAC10 are by far the fastest leagues. The Big 12 and ACC are trying to catch up. The Big 10 is behind--just like us. We got size, just need more speed. Recruiting is getting it, just need to get it on the field. For some reason, we like big, lumbering slow white guys.
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Mars


I find this thread fascinating.





It also makes me wonder how Patterson has been at TCU for 8-10 years (I forget exactly how long), and that coming off of Crowton's butchered tenure BYU still outclassed them in 2006 and 2007? So did the speedy recruits not come to TCU until AFTER they joined the Mountain West? That may be the case. If so, we made them much better, and now they're forcing us to become much better to remain in title competition in the coming years. Just fascinating.
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BroncoBot
Mars wrote:


I find this thread fascinating.





It also makes me wonder how Patterson has been at TCU for 8-10 years (I forget exactly how long), and that coming off of Crowton's butchered tenure BYU still outclassed them in 2006 and 2007? So did the speedy recruits not come to TCU until AFTER they joined the Mountain West? That may be the case. If so, we made them much better, and now they're forcing us to become much better to remain in title competition in the coming years. Just fascinating.


AGreed. I find this topic VERY interesting. I really like how patterson has done things at TCU. I hope that BYU can catch up soon.
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