Why Rivalry Games Matter More

Most of us on here are going to be familiar with these 2 names: John Cooper and Lloyd Carr.



John Cooper was the head football coach at Ohio State. Averaged 8 wins a year over 12 year. Had several years where he won over 10 games. Almost played for a National Championship a couple of times. Do you know why he got fired? He couldn't beat Michigan.



Lloyd Carr was the head football coach at Michigan. He won a National Championship. He won several Big 10 titles. Perennially ranked. Do you know why he got fired? Because he couldn't beat Ohio State.



Winning games matters. Winning rivalry games matters more.

stuckinbig10country wrote:
Most of us on here are going to be familiar with these 2 names: John Cooper and Lloyd Carr.



John Cooper was the head football coach at Ohio State. Averaged 8 wins a year over 12 year. Had several years where he won over 10 games. Almost played for a National Championship a couple of times. Do you know why he got fired? He couldn't beat Michigan.



Lloyd Carr was the head football coach at Michigan. He won a National Championship. He won several Big 10 titles. Perennially ranked. Do you know why he got fired? Because he couldn't beat Ohio State.



Winning games matters. Winning rivalry games matters more.

Here is the missing part of that story - and I have lived out there with a Buckeye Boss reporting to a Wolverine boss.



They could have beaten their rival every year and would still have lost their jobs, because the expectation is to win the conference every year, make a BCS Bowl every year, play for the NC every other year, and beat the rival every year. There is not much tolerance for falling short of this.



Do you think, for example, the Michigan faithful would accept a loss to MWC Utah or even PAC Utah because they did beat Ohio State. Losses to inferior opponents are totally unacceptable.



So a lot like BYU fan expectations - except OSU has an elite fan base, a ton of money, BCS affiliation, a typically weak BCS conference compared to SEC and Big 12, a huge stadium, cheating, a coach so good he even brought Utah out of the depths, ability to recruit top 15 classes almost every year, no cultural barriers or honor code to get in the way of recruiting, elite program, etc.



BYU is not Ohio State. Does not measure up and fanbase falls even shorter. Way shorter.



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How far did michigan fall after they fired Lloyd Carr?

frdbtr wrote:
How far did michigan fall after they fired Lloyd Carr?

Into The Abyss. So they just kept hiring and firing coaches. Eventually, they get another decent one.



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Man what would have happened if both Carr and Cooper were the coaches at the same time?!?

I also lived in Ohio, but I was there when Carr got fired. It was all about the multiple losses to Ohio State. Since the Vest took over at OSU, Carr had beaten him only once. He was a year, maybe two, from being number 2 in the country at the end of the year, before losing to OSU (who was number 1).



Rivalry games are just more important.

How many times have they beaten Ohio state since firing Lloyd carr?

To me that is just plain garbage that a guy would get fired over losing one game..... I doubt he would have a job if he won that game and no others. You wonder why Michigan has been down recently........ Maybe Hoke is there guy just hope he doesn't lose to Ohio St......

CDH wrote:
To me that is just plain garbage that a guy would get fired over losing one game..... I doubt he would have a job if he won that game and no others. You wonder why Michigan has been down recently........ Maybe Hoke is there guy just hope he doesn't lose to Ohio St......

He beat them barely last year, an OSU team that was in utter turmoil from the scandal. Hoke isn't an upgrade from Lloyd Carr, he is a lateral move at best. Rodriguez was a disaster and Michigan payed for firing Carr when he was a consistant winner. My Brother is a huge Michigan fan, he was irritated when they fired Carr.

Who is it that makes decisions like firing a guy like Carr? Maybe they should be fired?

CDH wrote:
Who is it that makes decisions like firing a guy like Carr? Maybe they should be fired?

The Athletic director, he was probably under pressure from Michigan boosters though. I do agree that someone like that should probably lose thier job though, especially after the mess Rich Rodriguez made of that program.

John Cooper got fired after a 1 or 2 loss year. He had lost to Michigan for like 3 or 4 years in a row, and two of those times that was the only loss of the year I believe. Michigan owned Cooper like Tressel owned Carr and like Whittingham is owning Bronco.

stuckinbig10country wrote:
John Cooper got fired after a 1 or 2 loss year. He had lost to Michigan for like 3 or 4 years in a row, and two of those times that was the only loss of the year I believe. Michigan owned Cooper like Tressel owned Carr and like Whittingham is owning Bronco.

And I am not willing to go through Rich Rodriguez before finding someone that is as good as Bronco is right now. BYU is NOT michigan or OSU. As much as fans would like us to be them. If BYU started firing coaches for losing to utah even though we averaged nearly 10 wins per year during his coaching tenure, no one would want to come coach at BYU considering the coaches pay scale and the honor code restrictions. Bronco has done an outstanding job with the cards he has been dealt.

frdbtr wrote:

And I am not willing to go through Rich Rodriguez before finding someone that is as good as Bronco is right now. BYU is NOT michigan or OSU. As much as fans would like us to be them. If BYU started firing coaches for losing to utah even though we averaged nearly 10 wins per year during his coaching tenure, no one would want to come coach at BYU considering the coaches pay scale and the honor code restrictions. Bronco has done an outstanding job with the cards he has been dealt.

I agree with this, although something needs to change in the way Bronco approaches the rivalry game. It really does hurt the program to lose to Yewtah, especially when the talent is there to win that game most of the time. Recruiting is harder, fans lose interest, donors are less willing to donate, etc. But you are definitely right. Look what happened to Nebraska after they fired Solich -- an average 9 win a year coach. They got Callahan and went into the dumpster. It's rare that a decent or good coach is fired in hopes of an upgrade, and then an upgrade actually happens. The only example I can think of is at Yewtah where they canned McBride and got Meyer. More luck for the Yewts. It does have to run out some day, doesn't it?