My thoughts on the U game, Bronco, Riley

This may be a pointless request, but if you are a pro-Riley, "Bronco til the end" type fan, I would ask you that as you read this that you force yourself to take the opposite viewpoint. Instead of just reading my post to poke holes in it, ask yourself if it's not true. Try to come up for your own support of the claims I'm making here. I would also ask you to post a response without reading the other ones. I'd like to see your own response to this post, unbiased by other posters' takes. Also, please note that the original title of the thread was changed to help you do this exercise. TIA.



Nobody can deny that Riley wants to win. That he's got fire. That he leads those of the team that he likes in a Jim Jones sort of way. I do believe he wants to win. I wish Bronco had his passion in that regard. He approached the QB situation the way he plays the position-he knew he lacks the talent so he got by on intangibles (politics, creating a division in the lockerroom, etc.) that somehow got mislabeled as leadership-but in the end, he's just not good enough. And now to make a long story short, 2013 is going to be a nightmare.



All of which so we could stink it up in 2010. And then for much of 2011. And now it appears 2012 is headed that way (won't win big games). Again, 2013 is going to be a nightmare. In the last 5 years, the worst thing that has happened to this team was Riley getting injured and getting a medical redshirt.



I don't know what it is going to take to get Bronco to humble himself and change the way he does things. I think he is a great man but just an average coach. I think he is a great DC but a mediocre HC. I think he is decently football smart but I honestly think he is not a particularly bright man, certainly below average intelligence as a football coach and maybe just right in the average for the public at large. Only a stupid person would persist with an approach that has not worked in every one of the 8 rivalry games. Bronco's teams have been out-prepped, out-coached and out-executed every time. That needs to stop.



I don't think we should fire Bronco if he can somehow humble himself, realize his approach is mostly not working, repent and then take us to new heights, rather than stagnating.



After the 2006 season, Bronco and the team came to a BB game I was attending at the Marriott Center. He promised that the best was yet to come. I think he meant it. And I think he was wrong. Really, really, Riley wrong. I started this post with the title and intention to discuss the "could have beens," but now I don't think I want to. That will probably take me to too dark of a place as a fan. I just have to remind myself that I didn't lose the Utah game. Bronco did. And he did it starting way back in the spring of 2010.

Agreed on all accounts!!



How has QB U been forced to rely on Riley and Heaps for the past three years without a true decent QB to lead this team. Sad thing is that Bronco's best teams came with Crowton's recruits and even then, he found ways to lose games that we should have won by double digits. Just think, one year we had Hall, Unga, Collie and Pitta all on the same team and still couldn't break the BCS.



I do think Bronco should be on a short leash, and if 2012 and 2013 ends up how many of us now fear, I think it will be time to look for a new HC.

jacksonman wrote:
Agreed on all accounts!!



How has QB U been forced to rely on Riley and Heaps for the past three years without a true decent QB to lead this team. Sad thing is that Bronco's best teams came with Crowton's recruits and even then, he found ways to lose games that we should have won by double digits. Just think, one year we had Hall, Unga, Collie and Pitta all on the same team and still couldn't break the BCS.



I do think Bronco should be on a short leash, and if 2012 and 2013 ends up how many of us now fear, I think it will be time to look for a new HC.

Heaps would have been great if only Riley, Ogletree and Bronco not ruined him.

:roll:

snoscythe wrote:
:roll:

So you couldn't do it? Of everyone on here I expected you to be able to.

Wow I think Bronco is better then a AVERAGE coach...... Step of the ledge..... I am sure there are great coaches lined up wanting to take one of the hardest coaching jobs in the country and get paid nothing compared to others!

CDH wrote:
Wow I think Bronco is better then a AVERAGE coach...... Step of the ledge..... I am sure there are great coaches lined up wanting to take one of the hardest coaching jobs in the country and get paid nothing compared to others!

Thanks for trying, sort of.

Ya cause you are adding some great stuff this morning..... Arm chair coaches gotta love em!!!!

Life must be nice when you have zero expectations and can take joy in cheering for losses. As a fan I'd love to get there. Maybe I am now. I dunno.

byutx wrote:

:roll:

So you couldn't do it? Of everyone on here I expected you to be able to.

I am on board with criticizing Bronco and point out his fallacies and short-comings, but you oversold your case when you start asking people to assume what you say is true and to build your own case for you.



The roll was directed at your jab at Nelson/Ogletree/Bronco. I know you've bought fully into mcgregor's side of the story from his "sources", but pinning it on Bronco before Doman is a bit-thickheaded and ignores the reality of what was going on the in the locker room.



Then you go and call Bronco "just an average coach" and otherwise go after his intelligence, insinuating he has below average intelligence for the public at large. The guy has put together a better string of years than Lavell ever did, and better than all but 6 coaches in the country, but you want to peg him at "just average" because his attempted upgrade on the offensive side of the ball didn't work when Doman proved to be indecisive with his personnel, playbook, and playcalls? Give me a break.



I think the only reason you are putting this at Bronco's feet instead of Doman's is because you were one of the people calling for Anae to be shown the door and Doman promoted despite his complete lack of experience playbooking, playcalling, or making personnel decisions and despite the fact he never played or coached in any capacity that would have taught him blocking scheme concepts that need to be the subtext of an effective playbook. I admit I wanted Anae out the door as well, but I was calling for a more seasoned, run-oriented OC--I would have preferred Bob Bostad who was available at the time. Now he's an Oline coach and run game coordinator in the NFL. As long as we're calling for Bronco to do some soul-searching, maybe people who were clamoring for Doman to be given the reins of the offense need to reevaluate the last 16 games where he's been in charge and ask what he's done to merit a 17th game.



Yes, I think Bronco needs to make some changes, but I'm not dumb enough to call him "just an average coach." I think the defensive side of the ball is in good shape, but the upgrade on the offensive side of the ball has gone sideways on him. I think the changes Bronco needs to make start and end with Doman and Weber.



For all those reasons and more, I repeat :roll:

My beef last night was with the performance of the Offensive line. When NRoley had time - which wasn't often - he got it done. From what I recall, Riley was operating from a collapsing pocket, getting moved backward because of false "O-line" starts, and scrambling quite a bit to buy time.



IMHO - the most glaring issue is the performance of the O-line. I am not looking forward to playing Boise St., Hawaii, Utah St., Oregon St., Notre Dame, Georgia Tech. All those teams have some big horses on the D-line that will push our boys around. It's going to be a long year for Riley, scrambling & trying to buy time to make plays.



I can't make a call on Weber. I can't make a judgement on the finer aspects of coaching an Offensive line. I just know what I see when the ball snaps.



Ultimately, it is about recruiting and getting the best horses in the barn for "race day." Without competitive horses, all the coaching and training still won't win the derby.

snoscythe wrote:
I know you've bought fully into mcgregor's side of the story from his "sources", but pinning it on Bronco before Doman is a bit-thickheaded and ignores the reality of what was going on the in the locker room.

Was that a cheap shot directed at me?



Listen, I stopped trying to sell my story long ago, because I'm not willing to give further details, especially about where it is coming from. I realize that exposes me to ridicule. Just didn't think it would come from you.



BTW, are you aware that at least one reporter was threatened by BYU to have his credentials pulled if he shared some of Riley's and Ogletree's locker room antics? He also thought it wiser to just keep quiet.



I support the team, and I support Riley. Just think he's a horrible QB, and has been somewhat poisonous for the team.



Can't wait for the Taysom Hill era to begin.

Hill's chance might be sooner than we thought.

I don't think Bronco is a below average coach. For what the circumstances that surround his ability to recruit decent players he's done a mighty fine job. I thought he showed some balls the last couple of years firing the DC, and letting Anea go. I use to really get bothered by his stoic expression but now I've come to appreciate it. You get frustrated when things don't go your way and players feed off of that.

I do agree that it seems BYU hasn't been as well prepared to play in big games as they should have been. Is that entirely Bronco's fault, I'd say not entirely. They played big against OU and sank against FSU, TCU, and Utah. We'd had a lot better football team than we've showed the last three years and that's 100% on the QB situation. The hype of Heaps never let us truly evaluate talent and now were stuck with a mediocre QB. No, I don't think heaps was anything but a head case. Knowing players in the locker room, they all said heaps was an arrogant SOB with no work ethic. If Taysom Hill takes the reins next year and we still play like crap, then I'll start changing my position. But I doubt you'll find a better coach, at the time being, than Bronco for BYU. Look at the records crowton gave us for example.

I like Riley. I like his leadership. I like the guts he has. I like how hard he plays. I liked how he didn't give up on Saturday. I never had faith he could win the game though after we had one turnover. he is a very average quarterback. I inferred this from what i had seen in the past and this was confirmed on saturday. he is not good enough to overcome the turnovers he himself usually creates against quality competition.



it is hard to imagine had the other qbs, namely lark and munns, not been given the reps riley had that they would not have been better. that was the coaches decision and we will never know. what we know is riley is not that good, at least not by byu standards.



i am not calling for bronco to be fired but only because i don't think there is a better coach that we could get to replace him.



What I think is that riley is average and bronco is above average (great recruiter, great dc). bronco does not belong in the same group however that nitwit, peterson, and patterson do for example. that is becoming more and more clear.

mcgregor wrote:

I know you've bought fully into mcgregor's side of the story from his "sources", but pinning it on Bronco before Doman is a bit-thickheaded and ignores the reality of what was going on the in the locker room.

Was that a cheap shot directed at me?



Listen, I stopped trying to sell my story long ago, because I'm not willing to give further details, especially about where it is coming from. I realize that exposes me to ridicule. Just didn't think it would come from you.



BTW, are you aware that at least one reporter was threatened by BYU to have his credentials pulled if he shared some of Riley's and Ogletree's locker room antics? He also thought it wiser to just keep quiet.



I support the team, and I support Riley. Just think he's a horrible QB, and has been somewhat poisonous for the team.



Can't wait for the Taysom Hill era to begin.

Sorry if that came across as a cheap shot. It was not meant as such. As I've told you before, I've heard two versions of what was going on and my personal opinion is that the truth lies in the middle. The point of what you've quoted was that even if your sources have it right, I still think Doman bears the onus more than Bronco for what was going on, and that was the point of the post.



Agreed 100000% re: Taysom Hill. My only reservation in looking forward to him are the Tebow comparisons you know will be coming ad naseum throughout his career.

My reply - without reading the other posts.



You are. Whiny, poor excuse for a fan, with totally unrealistic expectations, and a sense of entitlement, that I would guess cannot possibly explained by your own personal accomplishments - and this your self image is chained to some need for BYU Football to be perfect.



I suggest that you immediately bring yourself relief by finding a new team to support - one that will always come through for you. I was going to suggest Alabama, but wait - they lost badly to U on a field much nearer to them.



Please find a team that does not need support - or please figure out what support means.



There ya go - per your request - and according to your instructions.



Now - I could use another good laugh



Why don't you let us know exactly what you think Bronco should have done in 2010, 2011, and 2012.



Because I agree that a mistake was made that had Multi-year implications.



2009 - Nelson should have gotten more meaningful reps to measure him and get him ready.



2010 -



Jake Heaps should have been red-shirted in 2010. Riley should have started. When he went down - Lark should have been given the keys with Munns backing him up.



2011. Can't say. It would depend on how Lark looked and Munns. But Nelson, Munns, and Lark battle for the job. Heaps works with the Scout team or pouts and leaves.



2012. All four battle. Oops - we probably would not have Hill. Makes me kind of glad Heaps is gone and Hill is here.



Now for the laugher



Tell us - exactly what should have been done.



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byutx wrote:

Agreed on all accounts!!



How has QB U been forced to rely on Riley and Heaps for the past three years without a true decent QB to lead this team. Sad thing is that Bronco's best teams came with Crowton's recruits and even then, he found ways to lose games that we should have won by double digits. Just think, one year we had Hall, Unga, Collie and Pitta all on the same team and still couldn't break the BCS.



I do think Bronco should be on a short leash, and if 2012 and 2013 ends up how many of us now fear, I think it will be time to look for a new HC.

Heaps would have been great if only Riley, Ogletree and Bronco not ruined him.

Heaps - much like you - whiny - entitled - unaccountable - and trust me - Jake Heaps and his advisors ruined him. And now he is red-shirting, hopefully learning patience, and figuring out what TEAM is all about.



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mcgregor wrote:

I know you've bought fully into mcgregor's side of the story from his "sources", but pinning it on Bronco before Doman is a bit-thickheaded and ignores the reality of what was going on the in the locker room.

Was that a cheap shot directed at me?



Listen, I stopped trying to sell my story long ago, because I'm not willing to give further details, especially about where it is coming from. I realize that exposes me to ridicule. Just didn't think it would come from you.



BTW, are you aware that at least one reporter was threatened by BYU to have his credentials pulled if he shared some of Riley's and Ogletree's locker room antics? He also thought it wiser to just keep quiet.



I support the team, and I support Riley. Just think he's a horrible QB, and has been somewhat poisonous for the team.



Can't wait for the Taysom Hill era to begin.

Speaking of poisonous. We all have our sources. And our sources all have their biases. My inside sources on locker room issues indicated that Jake and "his guys" came into the locker room with a superiority complex and without a clue. That would have all worked itself out just fine - if Heaps had actually been any good. My sources were a very, very, popular defensive player not named Ogletree or not the son of my Stake President. Just to protect the innocent. The other was a respected member of the offense - that narrows it since so few were respected.



My other source was a UW defensive player that pre-game indicated UW hoped Nelson started and was concerned about facing Heaps - post game indicating Riley Nelson gave UW problems and was the reason BYU won.



It is all just anecdotal. We all have our sources.



I'm surprised you didn't blame Chambers for ruining Heaps when he symbolically tried to represent team sentiment.



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My sources tell me that it really falls on Bronco for not addressing it and nipping it in the bud sooner, and as a result of waiting, he lost a player, and almost more from this. IN a way, Bronco allowed it to happen because he wanted work ethic to prevail, but it went way too far. A divided locker room is something that should never be allowed to happen.



I think based upon lessons learned, it won't again. It was an experiment went wrong.