Archived Topic

Got problems with Bronco?

by Y12 · 7/6/2012

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jvquarterback
Frank Beamer got VT to a national championship game. When bronco accomplishes that I'll have a different opinion.



For right now I'll be happy with bronco making better in game decisions like not punting on 4th and 3 from the opponents 38 yd line.



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byucougar1
Bronco has more than made up for that incident - not sure that it equals the gaff committed by Les Mies/LSU not stopping the clock with time running out in order to run a well designed play - cost them the game.



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byucougar1
Bronco has more than made up for that incident - not sure that it equals the gaff committed by Les Mies/LSU not stopping the clock with time running out in order to run a well designed play - cost them the game.



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northerncougar
jvquarterback wrote:
Frank Beamer got VT to a national championship game. When bronco accomplishes that I'll have a different opinion.



For right now I'll be happy with bronco making better in game decisions like not punting on 4th and 3 from the opponents 38 yd line.



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Agree completely with byucougar1 on this. There is a huge difference between not learning from something and that is the opposite of Bronco. He has learned from this, in fact he learned from this that game. This is something that shouldn't be brought up at all.



I have my share of frustrations with Bronco, but that situation is not one. Pretty low to bring that one up.
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jvquarterback
Did you guys not watch the same bowl game against Tulsa as me? I wouldn't say Bronco has learned his lesson on when and where to attempt to convert on 4th down. He needs to improve on his statistical evaluation of in game situations. You can't blame all of Bronco's losses on poor execution. His clock management skills could use some improvement as well (there have been a couple situations where he has made some errors approaching what Les Miles did).



If you read the discussion of Beamer's faults some fans are against his decisions to take chances. What they don't understand is Beamer is one of the best at taking calculated risks in college football. Bronco could learn a lot from Beamer in that regard.



Just saying Bronco could benefit from a subscription to a good sports statistics journal.



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frdbtr
jvquarterback wrote:
Did you guys not watch the same bowl game against Tulsa as me? I wouldn't say Bronco has learned his lesson on when and where to attempt to convert on 4th down. He needs to improve on his statistical evaluation of in game situations. You can't blame all of Bronco's losses on poor execution. His clock management skills could use some improvement as well (there have been a couple situations where he has made some errors approaching what Les Miles did).



If you read the discussion of Beamer's faults some fans are against his decisions to take chances. What they don't understand is Beamer is one of the best at taking calculated risks in college football. Bronco could learn a lot from Beamer in that regard.



Just saying Bronco could benefit from a subscription to a good sports statistics journal.



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Once again you picked a bad game to outline Bronco's problems. He had a punter that was on fire in the Tulsa game with a defense that was stonewalling a very good tulsa offense. It is really good coaching to pin a team on the 1 yard line and make them punt from their own end zone when your defense and punter are playing so well. If we had failed to convert on 4th and 3 from the 38 and their offense gets a ball over the top on us, we lose the game. Bronco's coached a very good game in the Tulsa game.
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Cougs_Rule
With all my criticisms, I have to give Bronco support. The heightened visibility and scrutiny of his position and of these decisions is astounding.

He went statistically with what he had more confidence. And I must say I can't blame him. Hs defense was more likely to create a positive outcome than his offense in the Tulsa game mentioned. It also makes a statement of his lack of confidence in the offense. He lived to play another series of downs. So, come on Offense! Get your acts together!
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byucougar1
If we are talking about Tulsa game, Bronco went with stats. RS had pinned Tulsa inside their 20 7 times, and D had stifled a very high octane O. Play to strengths and put O in good field position with chance to win game. End of story - successful outcome - magic happens.



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northerncougar
jvquarterback wrote:
Did you guys not watch the same bowl game against Tulsa as me? I wouldn't say Bronco has learned his lesson on when and where to attempt to convert on 4th down. He needs to improve on his statistical evaluation of in game situations. You can't blame all of Bronco's losses on poor execution. His clock management skills could use some improvement as well (there have been a couple situations where he has made some errors approaching what Les Miles did).



If you read the discussion of Beamer's faults some fans are against his decisions to take chances. What they don't understand is Beamer is one of the best at taking calculated risks in college football. Bronco could learn a lot from Beamer in that regard.



Just saying Bronco could benefit from a subscription to a good sports statistics journal.



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I've been on Bronco's case for some things for a while, and this is one situation, among many, that he deserves great praise for. He did a masterful job of field position management and as horrible as our punting was against TCU, it was fantastic against Tulsa. Without Stephenson we lose that game.



Our offense struggled mightily behind an injured QB and defense and special teams won that game. Bronco deserves the utmost praise for that game.
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jvquarterback
Sometimes you get lucky when going against statistics. The defense was great in the Tulsa game and so was Stephenson. Bronco's decision making was not.



Every statistical evaluation of punting in short yardage situations on the opponents side of the field has shown it is better to go for it. Will the other team score more points - probably. But your team will score even more. Most authors suggest going for it more often will result in one more win in 30 games.



Is it too much to ask Bronco to defend his position based on the statistics of when to punt? Maybe he doesn't agree with all the studies done on this subject but I'd like to hear his critique.



For those of you defending Mendenhall's punting decisions a couple anecdotes don't make a compelling argument. There are certainly problems with the assumptions in the studies and a coach should be expected to adapt their decisions to the athletes he has available. I guess the real question is, if a statistical evaluation of in-game situations gives an advantage, why hasn't Bronco hired all the grad students in the stats department to help him?



FYI here are a couple of the studies on the subject (1,2)



And here's an editorial about why punting is rarely a good idea.
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SpiffCoug
I think with Riley this year, we should go for it on anything 4th & 5 or shorter once we cross the 50.
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northerncougar
jvquarterback wrote:
Sometimes you get lucky when going against statistics. The defense was great in the Tulsa game and so was Stephenson. Bronco's decision making was not.



Every statistical evaluation of punting in short yardage situations on the opponents side of the field has shown it is better to go for it. Will the other team score more points - probably. But your team will score even more. Most authors suggest going for it more often will result in one more win in 30 games.



Is it too much to ask Bronco to defend his position based on the statistics of when to punt? Maybe he doesn't agree with all the studies done on this subject but I'd like to hear his critique.



For those of you defending Mendenhall's punting decisions a couple anecdotes don't make a compelling argument. There are certainly problems with the assumptions in the studies and a coach should be expected to adapt their decisions to the athletes he has available. I guess the real question is, if a statistical evaluation of in-game situations gives an advantage, why hasn't Bronco hired all the grad students in the stats department to help him?



FYI here are a couple of the studies on the subject (1,2)



And here's an editorial about why punting is rarely a good idea.


So let me get this straight: You are using stats to decide when to punt? Really? You've got to be kidding me.



You sound like the young punks who come out of college and think they know how to do everything because in the vacuum of school, everything worked as the professors described. I have been writing software for 20+ years and I can tell you that I don't need stats to tell me if a project is going to work or not.



Sure, stats can tell part of the story. What they don't tell is the intangibles and emotion that determine much of what happens in the outcome of a game.



Heaps stats in practice were significantly better than Riley's. How did that work out?



You can use stats. I'll take the win.
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northerncougar
Double post. Sorry. Just trying to pad my stats. :sick:
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scott715
Stats ignore the situation. Using just stats is a 2 D thinking process. Situation is 3D.
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jvquarterback
SpiffCoug wrote:
I think with Riley this year, we should go for it on anything 4th & 5 or shorter once we cross the 50.


This graph says you should go for it on everything less than 4th & 6 inside the 50 but I'd settle for what you recommend.
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jvquarterback
northerncougar wrote:

So let me get this straight: You are using stats to decide when to punt? Really? You've got to be kidding me.



You sound like the young punks who come out of college and think they know how to do everything because in the vacuum of school, everything worked as the professors described. I have been writing software for 20+ years and I can tell you that I don't need stats to tell me if a project is going to work or not.



Sure, stats can tell part of the story. What they don't tell is the intangibles and emotion that determine much of what happens in the outcome of a game.



You can use stats. I'll take the win.


Yes I am suggesting using statistics on when to punt can yield a competitive advantage.



All I want to know from Bronco is if he thinks statistics and their proper implementation in game situations gives an advantage. If he does then great, how can he better implement them? If not, well then why not?



I'm not even arguing that going with your gut is always wrong. Although in many studies it has been shown human beings place greater value (negatively) on failure than they do on equal success. So most people's guts tell them to be more conservative than what would maximize their potential.



BYU won (and I'm happy about that) but would the likelihood of a win been greater if Bronco had decided to go for it on 4th and 3 from the 38 yd line? I think the stats say yes the likelihood would have been greater for a win if he had gone for it. If he has a different evaluation of the stats in that situation or just plain doesn't care about the stats I'd like to know.
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CrimsonCoug
JV-

These aren't bad questions to ask, but are pretty easily dispensed. You want to know if Bronco is aware of and uses these statistics? You'd have to ask him--I doubt anyone here knows. I do know that he pays attention to the trends that Wrubell gives him (and that just makes me wish Greg were an awesome econometrician, not that I fault him for not being one).



But even if Bronco were well aware of these stats, there are some good reasons why he'd still make the choice he did. You mentioned guts, and that's one. A bit more rigorously, Bronco might also be making some legitimate critiques on the use of Romer's paper (and really, Romer's is by far the best analysis out there and your second reference is almost wholly reliant on the first--Romer). I'll also say that I'm a fan of David Romer. But in this article, he has a few problems in application.



1) The data in Romer's paper are all subject to self-selection bias; that is, each choice is made to give the coach or team or owner or fans the best chance of maximizing his optimization function (be it job security, wins, profits, or some convex combination), and that choice may be entirely rational. We don't know because there is no counterfactual--we don't know what would have happened had the opposite decision been made in that same situation. And because we don't know that, it's reasonable to assume that whoever is making the choice is doing so in an optimal way. For example, it may be that coaches choosing to go for it do so because they know they have an ace up their sleeve, or that those choosing to kick know they have little chance of success otherwise but that they have a great punter and solid D (hm hm). It's not like these guys are rolling dice and randomizing over their choices so as to let a researcher come along afterward and figure out what the optimal choice would be on average over all plays for all teams--they're making an informed choice play by play. Romer only has data on the observed outcomes. And he doesn't do anything to try to overcome this selection bias.



2) Even if there were no selection bias (and clearly there is), these data are for the NFL game, and they are valid around the average. Bronco could be making the decision that his offense is performing worse than the average NFL offense (or more accurately, that the gap between his offense and an average NFL offense is larger than the gap betweenTulsa's defense and the average NFL defense), and so his expected payoff is lower. With a hurt QB, an sputtering run game, invisible TEs, and an underperforming O-Line against a Tulsa D that was performing better than advertised, I think that's probably a valid conclusion.



Result: I think Bronco made a good choice, one which is not in contradiction to the best (though still inadequate) statistical analysis out there, and in fact may even support it.



So while I may have a few quibbles with Bronco now and then, No, I certainly don't have any problems with him.
Y
YNot
jvquarterback wrote:
Most authors suggest going for it more often will result in one more win in 30 games.


If that one win would have been over Texas or TCU last year, I'll take it!
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StatsCougar
CrimsonCoug wrote:
JV-

These aren't bad questions to ask, but are pretty easily dispensed. You want to know if Bronco is aware of and uses these statistics? You'd have to ask him--I doubt anyone here knows. I do know that he pays attention to the trends that Wrubell gives him (and that just makes me wish Greg were an awesome econometrician, not that I fault him for not being one).



But even if Bronco were well aware of these stats, there are some good reasons why he'd still make the choice he did. You mentioned guts, and that's one. A bit more rigorously, Bronco might also be making some legitimate critiques on the use of Romer's paper (and really, Romer's is by far the best analysis out there and your second reference is almost wholly reliant on the first--Romer). I'll also say that I'm a fan of David Romer. But in this article, he has a few problems in application.



1) The data in Romer's paper are all subject to self-selection bias; that is, each choice is made to give the coach or team or owner or fans the best chance of maximizing his optimization function (be it job security, wins, profits, or some convex combination), and that choice may be entirely rational. We don't know because there is no counterfactual--we don't know what would have happened had the opposite decision been made in that same situation. And because we don't know that, it's reasonable to assume that whoever is making the choice is doing so in an optimal way. For example, it may be that coaches choosing to go for it do so because they know they have an ace up their sleeve, or that those choosing to kick know they have little chance of success otherwise but that they have a great punter and solid D (hm hm). It's not like these guys are rolling dice and randomizing over their choices so as to let a researcher come along afterward and figure out what the optimal choice would be on average over all plays for all teams--they're making an informed choice play by play. Romer only has data on the observed outcomes. And he doesn't do anything to try to overcome this selection bias.



2) Even if there were no selection bias (and clearly there is), these data are for the NFL game, and they are valid around the average. Bronco could be making the decision that his offense is performing worse than the average NFL offense (or more accurately, that the gap between his offense and an average NFL offense is larger than the gap betweenTulsa's defense and the average NFL defense), and so his expected payoff is lower. With a hurt QB, an sputtering run game, invisible TEs, and an underperforming O-Line against a Tulsa D that was performing better than advertised, I think that's probably a valid conclusion.



Result: I think Bronco made a good choice, one which is not in contradiction to the best (though still inadequate) statistical analysis out there, and in fact may even support it.



So while I may have a few quibbles with Bronco now and then, No, I certainly don't have any problems with him.


As a statistian, think this is a pretty good analysis of the articles and their weaknesses.
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