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Did Nephi Commit Murder or was it self-defense?

by CougarClaw · 2/2/2012

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CougarClaw
Got into a scriptural disagreement with a Libertarian who is trying to convince me that Gospel principles have a singular interpretation for all (coincidentally, HIS interpretation). I disagreed and pointed to Nephi who was given a different law than the rest of us in being commanded to superseed the Thou Shalt not Kill commandment. His rebuttle was that Nephi did not receive a different commandment but that he was acting in self-defense because Laban had threatened to kill him and his bretheren.



I've never heard a self-defense position for Nephi before and I think that's a pretty weak counter-argument. I thought I'd ask the masses if any of you had heard that argument before or if any one else actually agrees with it. I know we have some Libertarian-leaners on the board so perhaps i'll get a hit.



For the record, my position is there's no way it was self-defense to kill a drunk man in the street so you could steal his stuff. (Good Luck bringing that in front of the judge!)
G
Guest
no, it wasn't self defense.
M
Mars


I actually make a practice of killing every passed out drunk I see. In self-defense, of course.
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CougarClaw
Mars wrote:


I actually make a practice of killing every passed out drunk I see. In self-defense, of course.


My thoughts exactly. Except for the key difference that they have to threaten to kill you first.



And steal all your stuff.



and have teflon clothes that keeps off bloodstains.
M
Mythranor
I had several questions about that event on my mission, and I found this quote in the Old Testament Institute manual that really helped explain it:



The Prophet Joseph Smith taught the following:

“That which is wrong under one circumstance, maybe, and often is, right under another. “God said, ‘Thou shalt not kill;’ at another time He said, ‘Thou shalt utterly destroy.’ This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire.” (Teachings, p. 256.)



I have seen it quoted in other places in direct reference to Nephi and Laban, but for some reason I always find it easiest in the Old Testament manual. Hope it helps.
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M
Mars


To everything

There is a season

And a time to every purpose

Under heaven
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scott715
Twice I have tried to post this thread and they have been lost. I guess I am not meant to speak on the matter.
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SpiffCoug
Nephi was still under the Mosaic Law following the death of Laban. His responsibility to follow the commandment to not kill was still in effect for him. He was not completely released from that commandent. It was a very temporary suspension for a very expedient reason.
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CougarClaw
Mythranor wrote:
I had several questions about that event on my mission, and I found this quote in the Old Testament Institute manual that really helped explain it:



The Prophet Joseph Smith taught the following:

“That which is wrong under one circumstance, maybe, and often is, right under another. “God said, ‘Thou shalt not kill;’ at another time He said, ‘Thou shalt utterly destroy.’ This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire.” (Teachings, p. 256.)



I have seen it quoted in other places in direct reference to Nephi and Laban, but for some reason I always find it easiest in the Old Testament manual. Hope it helps.


I'm definitely going to steal this for my argument. I knew you guys would come through with some gems!



Scott715, try again! I want to hear your thoughts!
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scott715
Third time. FARMS did a report on this. It was hard to understand but according to Jewish law, if the Lord puts Laban in that position and I think after what he has done in trying to kill him then the death is juastifiable. It has been several years, I would have to read it again. but in any case Nephi was being obedient.
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CougarClaw
No one faults Nephi. The question is why.



Was he justified because it was self-defense, or some other reason, like God can order people to break otherwise firm commandments.
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SpiffCoug
CougarClaw wrote:
No one faults Nephi. The question is why.



Was he justified because it was self-defense, or some other reason, like God can order people to break otherwise firm commandments.

I think he was justified because God commanded otherwise.
S
snoscythe
scott715 wrote:
Third time. FARMS did a report on this. It was hard to understand but according to Jewish law, if the Lord puts Laban in that position and I think after what he has done in trying to kill him then the death is juastifiable. It has been several years, I would have to read it again. but in any case Nephi was being obedient.


http://www.aliveonline.com/ldspapers/Laban.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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scott715
Thanks. I don't have to read it but go to the bottom for the concluding remark on how Arabs studetns viewed it. Quite funny.
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jvquarterback
It wasn't self defense but that doesn't mean it doesn't fit into a libertarian framework.



1. Laban had attempted murder and stolen Lehi's property. Attempted murder isn't specifically addressed within the Law of Moses but there is certainly room to interpret the death penalty is appropriate for attempted murder under the law (as the FARM guys state).



2. Our bodies belong to God because he created them. In the libertarian context that means He has the right to do whatever he wants with us including destroying our bodies. So your argument that God told Nephi to kill Laban is really a libertarian argument anyway.
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G
Guest
I think it's pretty ostentatious to try to frame God's Will and Authority as libertarian.



God transcends libertarian ideas and beliefs, just as he does democratic, republican, socialist, mosaic etc.



God's law is the perfect law. All of men's laws are simply imperfect reflections, at best designed to draw us closer to being able to understand and live God's law.
J
jvquarterback
And yet God's actions fit within a libertarian framework.
M
Mars
jvquarterback wrote:
And yet God's actions fit within a libertarian framework.

...If you just tweak them here and there, and then squint at them at the perfect angle...
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jvquarterback
The only thing that is properly ours is our will. God never forces that. There is no tweaking needed to have His actions fit within a libertarian framework.
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SpiffCoug
jvquarterback wrote:
And yet God's actions fit within a libertarian framework.

Wrong. Libertarian framework fits within God's law.
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