Definition - Legendary

One gnarly poster believes it would take a BCS Bowl win for Riley to be legendary. Someone else said - undefeated season. Some said a Heisman. Some said a signature win. Would a signature loss - UTEP - UNLV - USU take you out of the running? A kinder, gentler, soul said 10 wins next season on top of what he did this season would do it. Someone suggested a win over Utah would be nice especially with a dramatic ending. But forget Riley for a minute.



What is a legendary QB - then we can finish the debate of whether Riley is one in the making.



If the bogey for being legendary is an undefeated season, BCS Bowl win, or NC - all of which basically boil down to an undefeated season - then BYU has exactly one Legendary QB in its entire history and none other than Robbie Bosco - who may have had more NFL success except for never recovering from an injury in his senior year at BYU. By this Bogey - there are no other legends - not Young, not Detmer, not McMahon. Not Sark. Not Carter. Nobody but Bosco.



That bogey seems too tough. I bet some will argue that not only is Bosco not our only legendary QB - he is not even the most legendary. After-all, his signature win is over a 6-5 Michigan team or a 3-8 Pitt team. And there was that ugly loss to a winless UTEP team when BYU was ranked #7.



If McMahon is your man. I guess it would have to be an imperfect season and / or the Miracle Bowl over SMU. Not Florida. Not Ohio State. Not Oregon. Not USC. SMU. But it was pre-death penalty SMU and they were decent. Which begs the question - exactly who dug the hole McMahon dug himself out of - yes - it was of his own making. And that loss to Wyoming - ugh. Quick - someone remind me of the national powerhouse McMahon beat. But he did at least win a Bowl Game - a first for BYU. I think Jim is a legend even though he never had an undefeated season and his miracle comeback was of his own making. But I loved it and I love Jim. Legend in my book. Oh - and he set a ton of records that stood for many years. Maybe that is a way to become a legend.



Steve Young. Well close your eyes to those losses to teams like UNLV and USU or the failure to beat the powerhouses he got a shot at. A nice upset of UCLA or the Bowl win over Misouri with the miracle throwback to the QB for the winning td sealed it. Some records. Oh - NFL Superbowl replaced Joe MoNtana. Wait that was after BYU. But that gets you a legendary status eventually. Legend in my book. Even with the 8-4 Junior season.



Detmer you say. Close your eyes. Ignore those 5 consecutive losses starting the day he won the Heisman Trophy. He won the Heisman Trophy. Nuff said. Legend. Signature win - Miami. Most impressive BYU win ever. Legend even though he was not much in the NFL and most people outside of Provo put an * by that trophy.



Sark - a 14-1 season will do that for you. He did not do much as a junior. That K-State Bowl win might be the 2nd toughest team BYU has ever beaten. Not much of a pro career. Outstanding coaching career. Legend. I don't care if he was a JC transfer. Legend.



You guys decide if those near perfect, but not quite perfect seasons like WIlson had losing only in the bowl game count as legendary. And his NFL career was a little better than Detmer, etc. Got a Super Bowl ring through the back door. Legend in my book.



Neilson - see Wilson. Legend of sorts.





Doman - with big assist from Staley would undoubtabley be a legend if Staley had not gone down. But 12-2. Late bloomer. Marginal NFL career. Coaching career looks promising. I am going to draw the line right here. Legend.



Never mind. Beck and Hall - legends. Carter - legend.



Now you have your legends in your own mind, legends around town, and legends that everyone on the planet has heard of and sees as being a legend. The legends in everyones mind, usually take the entire body of work, including NFL and coaching careers into consideration.



BYU legends



Steve Young - NFL career iced it. USFL contract put him in the national spotlight. BUt repalcing Joe Montana cemented him as a legend that everyone in the country would recognize - even Jerry Rice.



Jim McMahon - not far off. Injury shortened NFL carreer is the difference or maybe this one would go the other way. Walter Peyton gave an assist.



Lavell Edwards



Nobody in their right minds questions the legendary status of these three BYU football icons. Nelson is not likely to join this elite group. It would take a Super Bowl ring to join this list.



Detmer is next. The Heisman put him on the map and that was after the Miami win put him in the position to win the Heisman. But that Heisman has an * and most people around the country do not think he deserved it any more than Bosco deserved the NC. But he is an elite legend in Provo and somewhat nationaly.



Carter is next. His NFL career was solid and old-timers around the country would remember him.



Bosco probably comes next. But few outside of Provo remember who he is. No trophy. No NFL career. Tainted NC. Undefeated season. Bo Schembechler remembers him.





A NC for Riles - and he should be here or higher. I do not expect to see an undefeated season out of RIles next year - but he has surprised many people who told him he could not do something.



I think Riley has a very good shot to end up somewhere between here and #10 if he can pull off a 11-2 season next year. And hey - a super bowl ring and a 12-1 season would put him right up there with Jimmy Mac. I do not expect to see that.



I do not expect Riley Nelson to become a nationally recognized legend.



But around Provo - he just might become one of those legends - barring another untimely injury.

Some corrections. That 6-5 Michigan team started out highly ranked and had a ton of injuries that led to many losses. By the time the bowl game came around, most of those injured players were back, which is why they were so difficult to defeat. It wasn't your typical 6-5 team, but much more like the highly ranked team at the beginning of the season. Sidenote, Jim Harbaugh was the starting QB for Michigan but was still injured for that game.



SMU's lead wasn't all McMahon's fault. I just watched the Miracle bowl recently, and much of the problem was BYU's defense, who let SMU run it up and down the field at will. SMU had only 3 losses and they played against the likes of Texas, Oklahoma, A&M (when they were good), etc. This team was a very good team.



Yes, BYU QB's, even the legendary ones, have lost to some pretty poor teams. But that doesn't mean they aren't legendary. I think we are confusing "legendary" with terms like "perfect" or "elite."



Legendary is defined in the dictionary as "of, comprosing, or based on the nature of a legend." Legend is defined as "An unverified poplular story handed down from earlier times. A romanticized or popularized story of modern times. One who achieves legendary fame."



Hence, for me, what makes a legendary QB is that signature win. Legends often portray the weaknesses of their protagonists, so I would not consider a loss to a bad team to take away legendary status. The true mark is did they do something that people still talk about today? Did they have that signature win? Everyone talks about the miracle bowl, the Missouri flee flicker, the National Championship, and the Miami game.



Those wins are certainly romanticized and have created BYU QB legends. Certain plays have also become legendary. Beck to Harline, 4th and 18, etc. The real question for legendary is do people romaticize and still talk about it. Note, it may have nothing to do with actual or objective numbers. Legendary is all about perception. If you want to talk about the best QB's ever at BYU, then you probably need a more objective statistical analysis of QBR and control for quality of opponents that each QB faced.



Riley can be legendary, but he is going to need that signature win, and probably in a BCS bowl for people to be talking about him for years to come.

Great thread Cougarbib2



There are several different ways to define and categorize the BYU QBs.



What makes one a legend while another is just one of the greats?



When Max Hall finished his career, I did a piece for Isportsweb.com about where Max fit in the BYU Quarterback Hierarchy (it has since been removed as with the rest of my work once I stopped contributing). I considered the following criteria:



Stats

Wins (overall, winning %, signatiure win, and wins vs. Utah)

Making a difference



I think being legendary or not fits into the third criteria: making a difference.



John Walsh has stats that are very comparable to Robbie Bosco, and better than Steve Sarkisian and Steve Young. Why wasn't Walsh mentioned by either of the first 2 posters?



He didn't do anything different.



Walsh had a signature win at Notre Dame.

Walsh still holds some BYU and an NCAA statistical records.

Walsh even led a BYU team that finished with a top 10 ranking.



But Walsh failed to do something different, to have a gimmick, for lack of a better word.



Nelson is the first BYU QB to become an "internet celebrity." He definitely has his own unique style of play that is getting him recognition. How far will that carry him? Probably not far enough to make him a legend, unless he leads BYU to one of the classic BYU seasons next year. He will need a couple of signature wins, keep making big plays, and win almost every game.



A one loss season would definitely do it in my book. It would be the first in 15 years, and it would be something that Hall, Beck, and Doman all could have done, but failed to do.



A second perfect season would clearly be enough.



Heaps transferring also will play a key role in Nelson's future prospects of being a legend. If Nelson has a big statistical year and wins lots of games, he will be the underdog who knocked off the champ. If Nelson is mediocre and the team loses 4 games, and BYU struggles in 2013 and 2014, Nelson will be "villified" to an extent as the guy who ran of Heaps and sent BYU into a tail spin that took three years to recover from.



Again, that all goes back to "making a difference."

"Legend tells of a legendary player whose football skills were the stuff of legend!"

How about legends were good enought to get their jersey retired/BYU hall of fame. McMahon was good enough even though he did not reach that status.

The Utah State game alone made Riley into a legend at BYU already. There seems to be about a game/play every two-three years that sticks in your mind for years to come and that was one of them. That coupled with Heaps transferring, especially if Heaps succeeds, will keep Riley in the minds of fans for a long time. Next year will just determine if he's a legend for good or bad.



"Remember, kid, there's heroes and there's legends. Heroes get remembered, but legends never die. Follow your heart, kid, and you'll never go wrong."- Riley's Motto

Schmoe wrote:
"Legend tells of a legendary player whose football skills were the stuff of legend!"

Haha! Kung Fu Panda. My daughter and I love that show.



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When I look at BYU's legendary QB's I think of the lineup they had at the Stadium of all the BYU QB's who were All American's. I would think if a QB had what it took to be an All American he would be a BYU Legend.

Cougarbib2 wrote:



If the bogey for being legendary is an undefeated season, BCS Bowl win, or NC - all of which basically boil down to an undefeated season - then BYU has exactly one Legendary QB in its entire history and none other than Robbie Bosco - who may have had more NFL success except for never recovering from an injury in his senior year at BYU. By this Bogey - there are no other legends - not Young, not Detmer, not McMahon. Not Sark. Not Carter. Nobody but Bosco.

Your logic stinks Bib. I said that for riley to be a top 5 byu legend that this is what it would take. The same logic does not apply for others because others have other accomplishments like winning a heisman, them miracle bowl, superbowl etc.



You are misinterpreting my position with simple thinking. My point was that Riley still has not started a whole season. we were just debating if he has a signature win. the conclusion was no. he also hasn't made it more than a few games without injury. I was saying "that for riley" it would take a bcs bowl game and win to become a top 5 legend. what is so gnarly about that?



now others in terms of legends were thinking more like top 15 qbs at byu. well in that case it would take a lot less for riley to be put in that company.



You need to read more carefully or at least think things through before you make statements attributing false statements. What you said I said it not what i said. Just a little thinking on your part would do the trick.



I define "legend" as more than others do apparently. but if riley won 11 games next year and beat utah he would be a top 15 byu quarterback at least in company with those like john beck. max i put higher because he won more games as a byu qb than anybody else and had a winning record against utah, beat the number two ranked team in the land at jerry world.... etc.

jonnylingo wrote:

If the bogey for being legendary is an undefeated season, BCS Bowl win, or NC - all of which basically boil down to an undefeated season - then BYU has exactly one Legendary QB in its entire history and none other than Robbie Bosco - who may have had more NFL success except for never recovering from an injury in his senior year at BYU. By this Bogey - there are no other legends - not Young, not Detmer, not McMahon. Not Sark. Not Carter. Nobody but Bosco.

Your logic stinks Bib. I said that for riley to be a top 5 byu legend that this is what it would take. The same logic does not apply for others because others have other accomplishments like winning a heisman, them miracle bowl, superbowl etc.



You are misinterpreting my position with simple thinking. My point was that Riley still has not started a whole season. we were just debating if he has a signature win. the conclusion was no. he also hasn't made it more than a few games without injury. I was saying "that for riley" it would take a bcs bowl game and win to become a top 5 legend. what is so gnarly about that?



now others in terms of legends were thinking more like top 15 qbs at byu. well in that case it would take a lot less for riley to be put in that company.



You need to read more carefully or at least think things through before you make statements attributing false statements. What you said I said it not what i said. Just a little thinking on your part would do the trick.



I define "legend" as more than others do apparently. but if riley won 11 games next year and beat utah he would be a top 15 byu quarterback at least in company with those like john beck. max i put higher because he won more games as a byu qb than anybody else and had a winning record against utah, beat the number two ranked team in the land at jerry world.... etc.

Well - Something stinks. Must be my bad eyes again. ANd my SIMPLE MIND acting up again.



And to think I thought you said



THIS - THIS - THIS - THIS - THIS



"Re: Is Riley a legend in the making?

by jonnylingo » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:38 am



If Riley wants to be a legend then get us to a BCS Bowl an then win it. At that point he will be a legend. But given he only has one more year and he has never even played a full year as a starter, I don't think he will be a byu legend."







And I thought Hawk interpreted it the same way I did when he replied to you and said - your criteria would net Nelson and Bosco.



He must have bad eyes and a SIMPLE MIND too.



OR



Maybe you have a BAD MEMORY.



Do you see the words "Top 5" anywhere in your OP? I really doubt that Nelson will have NFL accomplishments to rival McMahon and Young. I really doubt he will win even a tainted Heisman Trophy like Detmer or a tainted NC like Bosco. But if he wins a BCS Bowl - Top 3-6.



If he just has a typical 10-3 or 11-2 season vs that schedule. In the mix with Beck and Hall who are not legends according to your OP criteria. Your criteria as originally stated - not with all the stuff you are now adding to what you stated - nets you Bosco and Nelson.



Even by your adjusted logic - restated to cover your tracks - even your logic stinketh now. You need to admit that there are numerous ways he could become a Provo legend - of which we have several - and very few ways without an NFL Super Bowl Ring - to climb into the elite status that even Bosco failed to achieve and only Jm and Steve have.



If you clarify what you mean by Legendary - by stating exactly who and whom isn't - then those of us with bad eyes and SIMPLE MINDS that you think have misread your OP, which I copied fully with no ommissions above - won't misinterpret whatever it is that we still cannot tell exactly that you mean.



It seems - that if you include Hall as Legendary - Riley just needs to beat Utah - in dramatic fashion after playing poorly for most of the game and then go off on a memorable "I hate Utah and everything About Utah" rant. Hall had many detractors prior to that very moment. And if that is not his signature win - what is? he was supposedly the guy without a signature win.



Ditto Beck - with a nice Bowl win.



So I hope Nelson comes up with a great rant after beating Utah after playing great the entire game and humiliating the U. That would be memorable as opposed to our two consecutive Jake Heaps lead losses. Who was the last BYU QB to HUMILIATE the U? Been a while.



A Heisman would do it.



Undefeated would do it. Quite frankly - a 1 loss season would do it. When was the last time we had one of those against any schedule - let alone this one.



A couple of signature wins or three in the same season would be something no BYU QB has ever done. Let's say - Utah on the road, ND on the road, BSU wherever it is we play them, Ga Tech on the road. Murderers Row. A nice Bowl Win. Win those - Legend. Right there. Name the BYU QB who ever matched that. Oh - and do it in dramatic fashion or blow them out. U need some drama to be remembered.

Cougarbib2 wrote:

Cougarbib2 wrote:



If the bogey for being legendary is an undefeated season, BCS Bowl win, or NC - all of which basically boil down to an undefeated season - then BYU has exactly one Legendary QB in its entire history and none other than Robbie Bosco - who may have had more NFL success except for never recovering from an injury in his senior year at BYU. By this Bogey - there are no other legends - not Young, not Detmer, not McMahon. Not Sark. Not Carter. Nobody but Bosco.

Your logic stinks Bib. I said that for riley to be a top 5 byu legend that this is what it would take. The same logic does not apply for others because others have other accomplishments like winning a heisman, them miracle bowl, superbowl etc.



You are misinterpreting my position with simple thinking. My point was that Riley still has not started a whole season. we were just debating if he has a signature win. the conclusion was no. he also hasn't made it more than a few games without injury. I was saying "that for riley" it would take a bcs bowl game and win to become a top 5 legend. what is so gnarly about that?



now others in terms of legends were thinking more like top 15 qbs at byu. well in that case it would take a lot less for riley to be put in that company.



You need to read more carefully or at least think things through before you make statements attributing false statements. What you said I said it not what i said. Just a little thinking on your part would do the trick.



I define "legend" as more than others do apparently. but if riley won 11 games next year and beat utah he would be a top 15 byu quarterback at least in company with those like john beck. max i put higher because he won more games as a byu qb than anybody else and had a winning record against utah, beat the number two ranked team in the land at jerry world.... etc.

Well - Something stinks. Must be my bad eyes again. and I thought you said THIS



Re: Is Riley a legend in the making?

by jonnylingo » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:38 am



If Riley wants to be a legend then get us to a BCS Bowl an then win it. At that point he will be a legend. But given he only has one more year and he has never even played a full year as a starter, I don't think he will be a byu legend.



And I thought Hawk interpreted it the same way I did when he replied to you and said - your criteria would net Nelson and Bosco.



He mus thave bad eyes too.



OR



Maybe you have a bad memory.



Do you see the words Top 5 anywhere in your post. I really doubt that Nelson will have FL accomplishments to rival McMahon and Young. I really doubt he will win even a tainted Heisman like Detmer or a tainted NC like Bosco. But if he wins a BCS Bowl - Top 3-6.



If he just has a typical 10-3 mor 11-2 season vs that schedule. in the mix with Beck and Hall who ar enot legends according to your criteria. Your criteria as state - not with all the stuff you are now adding to what you stated - nets you Bosco and Nelson.



Even by your adjusted logic - restated to cover your tracks - even your logic stinketh now. You need to admit that there are numerous ways he could become a Provo legend - of which we have several - and very few ways without an NFL Super Bowl Ring - to climb into th eelite status that even Bosco failed to achieve and only Jm and Steve have.



If you clarify what you mean by Legendary - by stating exactly who and hwom isn't - then those of us with bad eyes that you think have misread your OP, which I copied fully with no ommissions above - won't misinterpret whatever it its that we still cannot tell exactly that you mean.



It seems - tha tif you include Hall as Legendary - RIley just needs to beat Utah - in dramatic fashion after playing poorly for most of the game and then go off on a memorable I hate Utah and everything About Utah rant. Hall had many detractors prior to that very moment. And if that is not his signature win - what is? he was supposedly the guy without a signature win.



Ditto Beck - with a nice Bowl win.



So I hope Nelson comes up with a great rant after beating Utah after playing great the entire game and humiliating the U. That would be memorable as oposed to our two consecutive Jake Heaps led losses. WHo was th elast BYU QB to humiliate the U? Been a while.



A Heisman would do it.



Undefeated would do it.



A couple of signature wins or three in the same season would be something no BYU QB has ever done. Let's say - Utah on the road, ND on the road, BSU wheerever it is we play them, Ga Tech on the road. Murderers Row. WIn those - Legend. Right there. Name the BYU QB who ever matched that. Oh - and do it in dramatic fashion or blow them out. need some drama to be remembered.

bib, just go finish the whole thread you will find what you are looking for. Hawk and I worked through the definitions and pretty much came to agreement that i was defining legend more narrowly than he was. just go read it. i don't want to waste my time going back and pointing it out.



it was Hawk and I's back and forth, after my comments you posted above in siolation were made, that came to the whole "definition of legend" subject that you have now started a whole new thread on. He was looking broader than i was. I also point out that he was oversimplying given that other qb that didn't win national titles were legends for other reasons. heismans, big wins, amazing bowl games, records, etc.

Well - after accusing me of being simple minded, I just hope you realize that although my comment that originally quoted your OP may have shown up pages later, I posted it right after reading your OP. I start reading a new thread from the start - not the end. And to avoid reading it twice, I reply to a post right when I read it. That is how it works - if you read a post on P2 when there already 5 pages, your reply quoting that OP will show up on P 6.



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What about Barney Stinson? That guy was Legen- wait for it--dary! What up!?

Heisman Trophy = legendary (Detmer)

National Championship = legendary (Bosco)

Super Bowl Championship = legendary (McMahon, Young)

First "major" bowl win = legendary (Sark - Cotton Bowl)

14 wins = legendary (Sark again)



Usually you have to do something really notable that puts BYU on the map. Win 10+ games in 3 straight seasons and you get a "very good" designation. As good as Hall was, his signature performance was beating an highly ranked Oklahoma team early in the season before the ranking really means anything. This was spoiled when we got murdered by TCU, knocking us out of the top 10. We haven't been the same since. Also Hall bombed the 2008 Utah game and let the Utes go on to beat Bama in the Sugar Bowl.