Irony of 2011 Season

Remember back when all the Utah football Camp reports showed how many sacks their Oline was giving up, and how crappy we all thought that unit would be.



Then, we all raved about how awesome the BYU Oline will be, and when they gave up a sack, it was because our Dline and OLBs were going to own it this year?



Umm, wrong. Utah had a better Oline than us. They had a way better run game, gave good protection. And while our Oline gave good protection vs. weak sisters, they got pucked vs decent defenses this year. Our rushing totals the first 4 games was pathetic, and sacks vs our top 4 opponents was poor as well.



No more assuming from Fall camps anymore for me.

I was thinking the opposite the other day - the second week of fall camp onward was pretty indicative of where things were. Heaps' numbers became erratic (Lark's and Nelson's weren't much better), the defense kept looking better. I didn't really want to believe it at the time, but that's probably when the first warning light went on.

Dcr36 wrote:
I was thinking the opposite the other day - the second week of fall camp onward was pretty indicative of where things were. Heaps' numbers became erratic (Lark's and Nelson's weren't much better), the defense kept looking better. I didn't really want to believe it at the time, but that's probably when the first warning light went on.

For sure. And back then, Lark was outperforming RN. Strange Fall Camp for sure. Made even more strange by Bronco's statement that his team was most prepared and ahead of schedule. I think Bronco needs to pay attention to the offense.

Utes had a better offensive line? That's news to me. And the final year end stats (the ones you listed) show that BYU's offensive line was considerably better than Utah's. And if you throw out first four games, the gap was even wider.



Sacks allowed:

BYU 14 (26th in FBS)

Utah 31 (95th)



Rushing Yards:

BYU 1990 (54th)

Utah 1645 (82nd)



Rushing Yards per Game:

BYU 165.83 (52nd)

Utah 137.08 (82nd)



Yards per Rush:

BYU 4.38 (46th)

Utah 3.74 (87th)



Rushing TDs:

BYU 16 (81st tied)

Utah 15 (88th tied)



They didn't have a better run game. They didn't have better pass protection. They just weren't better.

Man, I knew Utah was anemic on O this year, but I had no idea they're rushing stats were that low.



Giving serious reconsideration to my "Utes dominate GT" prediction, even knowing that the Utah D vs. GT O match-up is absurdly in Utah's favor.

To me, the biggest irony (and Bronco's second biggest failure) is that we have seen big jumps in potential talent over the last few recruiting classes but have actually regressed the last two years as compared to 2005-2009. I would think that better talent would yield better teams, but I fear the opposite may be true for us. While it may be disputed that 2 years does not a trend make, I am a bit worried about where we are headed.



I used to be a huge Bronco guy and thought he would take us all the way. Maybe a team full of his type of guys (2 star, undersized with lots of heart and maybe less talent than other top programs) will get the job done. But, count me as one that no longer believes that Bronco will get us to the top. I'm not calling for him to be fired. That would be dumb, and not just because there's nobody out there that right now ready, willing and able to come in and do any better. It's also because the leadership and BOT love him. As long as he's cleaning up on the non-winning side of things (Thursday's heroes, Firesides, etc.-all things which I love about Bronco), the W/L record, who we play and in which conference we're in, if any, are all the 5th priority. I guess I could be okay with that. Eventually.

Don't worry guys, I got this one.

Common denominator is......??

Ding,ding,ding.

Mr. Jake Heaps, his entourage, and wife who were blaming others for the failures.

Sacks decreased when Jake went out and TBrown stopped snapping the ball to the cheerleaders. :-)

It would be interesting to see sacks sans Heaps v Nelson. Of course those #'s will be scewed also bc Jake played duck and chuck rather than get hit.



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SpiffCoug wrote:
Utes had a better offensive line? That's news to me. And the final year end stats (the ones you listed) show that BYU's offensive line was considerably better than Utah's. And if you throw out first four games, the gap was even wider.



Sacks allowed:

BYU 14 (26th in FBS)

Utah 31 (95th)



Rushing Yards:

BYU 1990 (54th)

Utah 1645 (82nd)



Rushing Yards per Game:

BYU 165.83 (52nd)

Utah 137.08 (82nd)



Yards per Rush:

BYU 4.38 (46th)

Utah 3.74 (87th)



Rushing TDs:

BYU 16 (81st tied)

Utah 15 (88th tied)



They didn't have a better run game. They didn't have better pass protection. They just weren't better.

And this is where stats do not give the full story and fail you. If you want to tell me that the PAC schools were a piss poor in terms of athletic ability as the teams we played, you lose that argument every time. Not buying it.



Additionally, Utah has a great runner in White and we have no such luxury. Teams stacked the box on him and he still got over 1,000 yards, and they had horrible QB play.



Don;t try to tell me that SJSU, USU, Hawaii, Idaho, ISU, NMSU were the same as the poor PAC teams Utah played. Not by a mile.

byutx wrote:
To me, the biggest irony (and Bronco's second biggest failure) is that we have seen big jumps in potential talent over the last few recruiting classes but have actually regressed the last two years as compared to 2005-2009. I would think that better talent would yield better teams, but I fear the opposite may be true for us. While it may be disputed that 2 years does not a trend make, I am a bit worried about where we are headed.



I used to be a huge Bronco guy and thought he would take us all the way. Maybe a team full of his type of guys (2 star, undersized with lots of heart and maybe less talent than other top programs) will get the job done. But, count me as one that no longer believes that Bronco will get us to the top. I'm not calling for him to be fired. That would be dumb, and not just because there's nobody out there that right now ready, willing and able to come in and do any better. It's also because the leadership and BOT love him. As long as he's cleaning up on the non-winning side of things (Thursday's heroes, Firesides, etc.-all things which I love about Bronco), the W/L record, who we play and in which conference we're in, if any, are all the 5th priority. I guess I could be okay with that. Eventually.

I think it'd be interesting if we actually looked at the "talent level" on a case-by-case basis, rather than just tracking the team as a whole. Some of those guys are performing (KVN, Apo, Kavinga), some aren't (Heaps, can't ever figure out Richard Wilson), some haven't really seen enough playing time to decide (Stoudt, Hine, Holt).



I really have no clue what the success rate of 4+ star recruits are at other schools. It'd be interesting to compare.



FWIW, I don't think the BYU team playing these last few weeks represents that much of a regression from 05-09. I could be wrong, though.

Dcr36 wrote:
Man, I knew Utah was anemic on O this year, but I had no idea they're rushing stats were that low.



Giving serious reconsideration to my "Utes dominate GT" prediction, even knowing that the Utah D vs. GT O match-up is absurdly in Utah's favor.

Utah's Rushing game was ONE man. John White IV:



He finished 11th in rushing with 1,404 yards, 4.84 ypc, 117 ypg and 14 rushing TDs.



That means the rest of the team had 241 yards rushing in 12 games.

dmcougar wrote:
Don't worry guys, I got this one.

Common denominator is......??

Ding,ding,ding.

Mr. Jake Heaps, his entourage, and wife who were blaming others for the failures.

Sacks decreased when Jake went out and TBrown stopped snapping the ball to the cheerleaders. :-)

It would be interesting to see sacks sans Heaps v Nelson. Of course those #'s will be scewed also bc Jake played duck and chuck rather than get hit.



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Actually you would be wrong. Heaps was sacked four times in the first four games. Nelson was sacked 8 times in 5 1/2 games. Jake wasn't sacked after the Utah game.

guys, BYU is still young, the problem the last 2 years is not coaching it is young players still learning how to play at the college level. This year (to start), our QB was a true sophomore, our #1 WR is a redshirt sophomore, our #2 WR is a redshirt freshman, our starting running back is a sophomore (fresh off a mission), our offensive line is the only position that had upper classmen. Our Defense, loaded with freshmen and sophomores. give the team some time to mature. from 06-09, we had a lot of guys that were more mature. this is not a coaching issue. BYU's fan base is just being impatient, and the coaches probably fell into that trap too thinking the team was more mature then it is. I know I did.

byutx wrote:
To me, the biggest irony (and Bronco's second biggest failure) is that we have seen big jumps in potential talent over the last few recruiting classes but have actually regressed the last two years as compared to 2005-2009. I would think that better talent would yield better teams, but I fear the opposite may be true for us. While it may be disputed that 2 years does not a trend make, I am a bit worried about where we are headed.



I used to be a huge Bronco guy and thought he would take us all the way. Maybe a team full of his type of guys (2 star, undersized with lots of heart and maybe less talent than other top programs) will get the job done. But, count me as one that no longer believes that Bronco will get us to the top. I'm not calling for him to be fired. That would be dumb, and not just because there's nobody out there that right now ready, willing and able to come in and do any better. It's also because the leadership and BOT love him. As long as he's cleaning up on the non-winning side of things (Thursday's heroes, Firesides, etc.-all things which I love about Bronco), the W/L record, who we play and in which conference we're in, if any, are all the 5th priority. I guess I could be okay with that. Eventually.

I pretty much fully agree with this post. I really like most of Bronco has done. And in truth maybe gotten as much out his teams as Edwards, maybe more.

I have also espoused the saying, " A unified effort with mediocre ideas/skills/talent will get any organization much farther ahead than a disjointed effort with superior talent/skills/ideas.

The whole really is greater than the sum of its parts. RN brings that. A few others do as well. I am actually excited about next years team. Scapegoating last year with Anae and now Jake should go a long way to unify this team. Should.

BUt very IRONIC and unsettling that this team could have done so much better with what has turned out to be a down year for even the good teams we played--which is also part of the irony.

Dcr36 wrote:

To me, the biggest irony (and Bronco's second biggest failure) is that we have seen big jumps in potential talent over the last few recruiting classes but have actually regressed the last two years as compared to 2005-2009. I would think that better talent would yield better teams, but I fear the opposite may be true for us. While it may be disputed that 2 years does not a trend make, I am a bit worried about where we are headed.



I used to be a huge Bronco guy and thought he would take us all the way. Maybe a team full of his type of guys (2 star, undersized with lots of heart and maybe less talent than other top programs) will get the job done. But, count me as one that no longer believes that Bronco will get us to the top. I'm not calling for him to be fired. That would be dumb, and not just because there's nobody out there that right now ready, willing and able to come in and do any better. It's also because the leadership and BOT love him. As long as he's cleaning up on the non-winning side of things (Thursday's heroes, Firesides, etc.-all things which I love about Bronco), the W/L record, who we play and in which conference we're in, if any, are all the 5th priority. I guess I could be okay with that. Eventually.

I think it'd be interesting if we actually looked at the "talent level" on a case-by-case basis, rather than just tracking the team as a whole. Some of those guys are performing (KVN, Apo, Kavinga), some aren't (Heaps, can't ever figure out Richard Wilson), some haven't really seen enough playing time to decide (Stoudt, Hine, Holt).



I really have no clue what the success rate of 4+ star recruits are at other schools. It'd be interesting to compare.



FWIW, I don't think the BYU team playing these last few weeks represents that much of a regression from 05-09. I could be wrong, though.

Valid points to be sure, except maybe the last one. I don't think you can discount 23 games and just include the last 3 of 5. In the end, Bronco deserves responsibility for the failures (there have been many) and successes (there have been painfully few in games that matter) of the last 2 years.

Lawboy wrote:

Utes had a better offensive line? That's news to me. And the final year end stats (the ones you listed) show that BYU's offensive line was considerably better than Utah's. And if you throw out first four games, the gap was even wider.



Sacks allowed:

BYU 14 (26th in FBS)

Utah 31 (95th)



Rushing Yards:

BYU 1990 (54th)

Utah 1645 (82nd)



Rushing Yards per Game:

BYU 165.83 (52nd)

Utah 137.08 (82nd)



Yards per Rush:

BYU 4.38 (46th)

Utah 3.74 (87th)



Rushing TDs:

BYU 16 (81st tied)

Utah 15 (88th tied)



They didn't have a better run game. They didn't have better pass protection. They just weren't better.

And this is where stats do not give the full story and fail you. If you want to tell me that the PAC schools were a piss poor in terms of athletic ability as the teams we played, you lose that argument every time. Not buying it.



Additionally, Utah has a great runner in White and we have no such luxury. Teams stacked the box on him and he still got over 1,000 yards, and they had horrible QB play.



Don;t try to tell me that SJSU, USU, Hawaii, Idaho, ISU, NMSU were the same as the poor PAC teams Utah played. Not by a mile.

Against Oregon State, on the road, we ran for 282 yards. Utah, at home against Oregon State, ran for 225....I know it is just one game, but looks like we did better than utah did against this common opponent

Lawboy wrote:
And this is where stats do not give the full story and fail you. If you want to tell me that the PAC schools were a piss poor in terms of athletic ability as the teams we played, you lose that argument every time. Not buying it.



Additionally, Utah has a great runner in White and we have no such luxury. Teams stacked the box on him and he still got over 1,000 yards, and they had horrible QB play.



Don;t try to tell me that SJSU, USU, Hawaii, Idaho, ISU, NMSU were the same as the poor PAC teams Utah played. Not by a mile.

You know I think the real factor that is skewing things here is a serious amount of negativity from you. You have been down on seemingly all things BYU this year. And now you are trashing BYU's offensive line while at the same time praising Utah's offensive line, without any stats to back it up.



Utah gave up more than twice the sacks and it is because of the Pac 12?! Their opponents averaged 21.73 sacks on the year and yet they gave up 31. BYU's opponents averaged 19.65 sacks on the year and yet BYU gave up 14.They are 9 over average, BYU is 6 under average.



And for the rushing game, Utah's opponents averaged giving up 1663.7 yards for the year and Utah gained 1645. BYU's opponents averaged giving up 1709.47 yards for the year and BYU gained 1990. Utah is 19 under and BYU is 280 over.



I agree that we shouldn't buy the hype from camp, but Utah's O-line did not perform better than BYU's this year.

SpiffCoug wrote:
Utes had a better offensive line? That's news to me. And the final year end stats (the ones you listed) show that BYU's offensive line was considerably better than Utah's. And if you throw out first four games, the gap was even wider.



Sacks allowed:

BYU 14 (26th in FBS)

Utah 31 (95th)



Rushing Yards:

BYU 1990 (54th)

Utah 1645 (82nd)



Rushing Yards per Game:

BYU 165.83 (52nd)

Utah 137.08 (82nd)



Yards per Rush:

BYU 4.38 (46th)

Utah 3.74 (87th)



Rushing TDs:

BYU 16 (81st tied)

Utah 15 (88th tied)



They didn't have a better run game. They didn't have better pass protection. They just weren't better.

These stats are flawed like all stats are flawed. they do not take in account level of competition.

byutx wrote:
To me, the biggest irony (and Bronco's second biggest failure) is that we have seen big jumps in potential talent over the last few recruiting classes but have actually regressed the last two years as compared to 2005-2009. I would think that better talent would yield better teams, but I fear the opposite may be true for us. While it may be disputed that 2 years does not a trend make, I am a bit worried about where we are headed.



I used to be a huge Bronco guy and thought he would take us all the way. Maybe a team full of his type of guys (2 star, undersized with lots of heart and maybe less talent than other top programs) will get the job done. But, count me as one that no longer believes that Bronco will get us to the top. I'm not calling for him to be fired. That would be dumb, and not just because there's nobody out there that right now ready, willing and able to come in and do any better. It's also because the leadership and BOT love him. As long as he's cleaning up on the non-winning side of things (Thursday's heroes, Firesides, etc.-all things which I love about Bronco), the W/L record, who we play and in which conference we're in, if any, are all the 5th priority. I guess I could be okay with that. Eventually.

Amen. You have mirrored my feelings exactly.

jonnylingo wrote:

Utes had a better offensive line? That's news to me. And the final year end stats (the ones you listed) show that BYU's offensive line was considerably better than Utah's. And if you throw out first four games, the gap was even wider.



Sacks allowed:

BYU 14 (26th in FBS)

Utah 31 (95th)



Rushing Yards:

BYU 1990 (54th)

Utah 1645 (82nd)



Rushing Yards per Game:

BYU 165.83 (52nd)

Utah 137.08 (82nd)



Yards per Rush:

BYU 4.38 (46th)

Utah 3.74 (87th)



Rushing TDs:

BYU 16 (81st tied)

Utah 15 (88th tied)



They didn't have a better run game. They didn't have better pass protection. They just weren't better.

These stats are flawed like all stats are flawed. they do not take in account level of competition.

You probably posted your response before you saw Isola's comments, but I'll point them out again, because when you don't have a lot of common opponents the best thing you can do to compare is compare how each did to the average.

Isola wrote:
Utah gave up more than twice the sacks and it is because of the Pac 12?! Their opponents averaged 21.73 sacks on the year and yet they gave up 31. BYU's opponents averaged 19.65 sacks on the year and yet BYU gave up 14.They are 9 over average, BYU is 6 under average.



And for the rushing game, Utah's opponents averaged giving up 1663.7 yards for the year and Utah gained 1645. BYU's opponents averaged giving up 1709.47 yards for the year and BYU gained 1990. Utah is 19 under and BYU is 280 over.

hawkwing wrote:

SpiffCoug wrote:
Utes had a better offensive line? That's news to me. And the final year end stats (the ones you listed) show that BYU's offensive line was considerably better than Utah's. And if you throw out first four games, the gap was even wider.



Sacks allowed:

BYU 14 (26th in FBS)

Utah 31 (95th)



Rushing Yards:

BYU 1990 (54th)

Utah 1645 (82nd)



Rushing Yards per Game:

BYU 165.83 (52nd)

Utah 137.08 (82nd)



Yards per Rush:

BYU 4.38 (46th)

Utah 3.74 (87th)



Rushing TDs:

BYU 16 (81st tied)

Utah 15 (88th tied)



They didn't have a better run game. They didn't have better pass protection. They just weren't better.

These stats are flawed like all stats are flawed. they do not take in account level of competition.

You probably posted your response before you saw Isola's comments, but I'll point them out again, because when you don't have a lot of common opponents the best thing you can do to compare is compare how each did to the average.

Isola wrote:
Utah gave up more than twice the sacks and it is because of the Pac 12?! Their opponents averaged 21.73 sacks on the year and yet they gave up 31. BYU's opponents averaged 19.65 sacks on the year and yet BYU gave up 14.They are 9 over average, BYU is 6 under average.



And for the rushing game, Utah's opponents averaged giving up 1663.7 yards for the year and Utah gained 1645. BYU's opponents averaged giving up 1709.47 yards for the year and BYU gained 1990. Utah is 19 under and BYU is 280 over.

You are correct. I was lazy and posted before I read through the comments.