2011 BYU vs. Utah State, etc.

I went back and read some old threads. It was an interesting experience, especially now that this year has taken on a readily identifiable narrative.



I'm sure people have already recognized this, but BYU vs. Utah State 2011 is now going to be an important game in the history of BYU football, for better or for worse. Aside from Utah games and a few of our marquee wins, as well as marquee loses (UTEP, Hawaii, USU last year), I'm hard-pressed to find a game that turned out to be as meaningful as USU was this year.



Reading the game thread, and some of the subsequent reactions, is an interesting trip - it's somewhat sad when you realize that, even though he started two more games, it marked the beginning of the end for Jake Heaps.



Game thread -

http://cougarcorner.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10035



"Nelson did it better than Heaps for two reasons" -

http://cougarcorner.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10043



"Say hello to Riley Nelson" -

http://cougarcorner.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10040



"Be careful what we wish for" -

http://cougarcorner.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10053



What a strange game. Looking back on it, I don't know whether I love the game for being a thrilling win with great storylines all over the place, or if it makes me sad now knowing that it was probably the final blow that sent Heaps packing. (Don't get me wrong, if Heaps left because he couldn't hack it, I'm disappointed - but I had a lot of hopes for him, and it makes me sad to know they'll never be fulfilled.)

Funny reading the game thread. I do recall seeing very clearly that Nelson had very little arm strength in that game, but since then he has looked awesome on all of his throws. I'm glad to be wrong (about his throwing ability--I always knew the fire and passion were there).

I hope that anyone who might lump me in with the Heaps apologists take a good look at the Game Thread, and the Say hello thread. :)



I don't remember ever going from despair to euphoria like that before, even during the 2006 and 2007 Utah games, because at least the teams played well those games. This was absolutely pathetic for 2 1/2 quarters.

Nelson's arm strength issues have always been a myth. In his first start in the WA game that throw to Quezada in the back of the end zone for his 1st TD showed me that he had plenty of arm strength. When the offense you are running is designed to take away your throwing ability and only run, how are you supposed to develop chemestry and timing with your recievers?



2nd point. Nelson has always had a better grasp on the offense then Heaps had. His second touchdown in the WA game was a total audible call on his part. He told Diluigi to go vert if the linebacker came on the blitz, the linebacker came, Diluigi did what he was told and Nelson hit him in stride. the coaching staff at that point should have given the start to Nelson and started talking to Heaps about Redshirting 2011 but they did not. If I am going to blame coaching for anything these last couple of years it has been QB mismanagement(for both Nelson and Heaps). If Robert Anae deserved his firing, it was because of that.

frdbtr wrote:
Nelson's arm strength issues have always been a myth.

I agree. I was pointing out after open practices before last year's season that Riley Nelson had the arm strength to make every throw in the BYU offense. While he couldn't throw a frozen rope 50 yards, he could put air under it and allow his receivers to get to the ball and make a play.

mizzoucoug wrote:
Funny reading the game thread. I do recall seeing very clearly that Nelson had very little arm strength in that game, but since then he has looked awesome on all of his throws. I'm glad to be wrong (about his throwing ability--I always knew the fire and passion were there).

I whole heartedly disagree with the notion that he has looked awesome on all of his throws. Anyone that has watched him closely, especially vs. TCU would know this. NO QB makes every pass perfect, even in the NFL. But, RN's passing is nowhere near awesome. I would put it firmly in the acceptable to mediocre range.

byutx wrote:

Funny reading the game thread. I do recall seeing very clearly that Nelson had very little arm strength in that game, but since then he has looked awesome on all of his throws. I'm glad to be wrong (about his throwing ability--I always knew the fire and passion were there).

I whole heartedly disagree with the notion that he has looked awesome on all of his throws. Anyone that has watched him closely, especially vs. TCU would know this. NO QB makes every pass perfect, even in the NFL. But, RN's passing is nowhere near awesome. I would put it firmly in the acceptable to mediocre range.

I would put his passing ability WAY above acceptable and Light years ahead of Mediocre. Riley's carreer PER is 166.8. That is not an average to mediocre passer that is a very good passer, that is John Beck Sr year efficiency. Everyone needs to get these Riley Nelson myths out of thier heads and accept that we have a very good QB and team leader that gives us a chance to win every game we play. If it weren't for 28 points given up on special teams to TCU, he would already have his marquee win. See the article below for where I got my info



http://blog.cougarfan.com/2011/12/stats-show-nelson-was-clearly-better.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

frdbtr wrote:

mizzoucoug wrote:
Funny reading the game thread. I do recall seeing very clearly that Nelson had very little arm strength in that game, but since then he has looked awesome on all of his throws. I'm glad to be wrong (about his throwing ability--I always knew the fire and passion were there).

I whole heartedly disagree with the notion that he has looked awesome on all of his throws. Anyone that has watched him closely, especially vs. TCU would know this. NO QB makes every pass perfect, even in the NFL. But, RN's passing is nowhere near awesome. I would put it firmly in the acceptable to mediocre range.

I would put his passing ability WAY above acceptable and Light years ahead of Mediocre. Riley's carreer PER is 166.8. That is not an average to mediocre passer that is a very good passer, that is John Beck Sr year efficiency. Everyone needs to get these Riley Nelson myths out of thier heads and accept that we have a very good QB and team leader that gives us a chance to win every game we play. If it weren't for 28 points given up on special teams to TCU, he would already have his marquee win. See the article below for where I got my info



http://blog.cougarfan.com/2011/12/stats-show-nelson-was-clearly-better.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

LOL. Anyone that doesn't recognize that RN's strengths are his feet, heart, guts and leadership and that his one real weakness is his ability to make all the throws in a BYU offense is missing something. And as for RN's performance vs. TCU? I was at the game. I saw his fluttering passes. I've watched him throw. The dude has a slow delivery and has below average ball speed for any QB, let alone a BYU one.



I can't argue against his PER, but I believe that says more about his ability to get out of the pocket and make throws on the run. He has gotten much better since the TCU game, partly because we've played crap teams and partly because he is able to grow and adapt much quicker than Heaps.



I can't imagine anyone would take RN's passing ability over Max Hall's, John Beck's or any other of our top 10 or so QB's. For the average NCAA team, RN is average. For BYU, the QB factory, his passing ability is below what I want in a QB.

I like the stats on that link. Especially this:

Could this be a true reflection? Didn't Heaps play better competition? Heaps clearly is the better passer, so this can't be right, can it?



Here are the combined winning percentages of the opponents that each has played against in the last two years:



Heaps' opponents: 50%

Nelson's opponents: 49%

I don't want to hear any more crying about Heaps' tough schedule!!

byutx wrote:

byutx wrote:

Funny reading the game thread. I do recall seeing very clearly that Nelson had very little arm strength in that game, but since then he has looked awesome on all of his throws. I'm glad to be wrong (about his throwing ability--I always knew the fire and passion were there).

I whole heartedly disagree with the notion that he has looked awesome on all of his throws. Anyone that has watched him closely, especially vs. TCU would know this. NO QB makes every pass perfect, even in the NFL. But, RN's passing is nowhere near awesome. I would put it firmly in the acceptable to mediocre range.

I would put his passing ability WAY above acceptable and Light years ahead of Mediocre. Riley's carreer PER is 166.8. That is not an average to mediocre passer that is a very good passer, that is John Beck Sr year efficiency. Everyone needs to get these Riley Nelson myths out of thier heads and accept that we have a very good QB and team leader that gives us a chance to win every game we play. If it weren't for 28 points given up on special teams to TCU, he would already have his marquee win. See the article below for where I got my info



http://blog.cougarfan.com/2011/12/stats-show-nelson-was-clearly-better.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

LOL. Anyone that doesn't recognize that RN's strengths are his feet, heart, guts and leadership and that his one real weakness is his ability to make all the throws in a BYU offense is missing something. And as for RN's performance vs. TCU? I was at the game. I saw his fluttering passes. I've watched him throw. The dude has a slow delivery and has below average ball speed for any QB, let alone a BYU one.



I can't argue against his PER, but I believe that says more about his ability to get out of the pocket and make throws on the run. He has gotten much better since the TCU game, partly because we've played crap teams and partly because he is able to grow and adapt much quicker than Heaps.



I can't imagine anyone would take RN's passing ability over Max Hall's, John Beck's or any other of our top 10 or so QB's. For the average NCAA team, RN is average. For BYU, the QB factory, his passing ability is below what I want in a QB.

Yep, Riley doesn't remind you of some of the QB's we have had here in the past as far as arm strength, height or what not but he gets the ball to the right guy at the right time. I don't care if his passes flutter, if he has to use his legs to do it or what. He gets the ball to the right guy at the right time. A 167 per is not a lie.



Edit: I can remember an undersized kid a few years ago that had weak arm strength who threw for 15,000 yards. You guys might remember him as Ty Detmer. Go back and watch some of his highlights. His ball was not pretty, it didn't have a lot of zip, it flutterd like a wounded duck sometimes but he always got it to the right guy at the right time. Now Riley is no Ty Detmer by any comparison but he is a good QB that we should be proud to support.