So it's Jimmers fault?

Unbelievable



http://www.heraldextra.com/sports/college/byu/football/lloyd-heaps-needs-to-move-on---and-jimmer/article_534b772c-2010-11e1-9b77-001871e3ce6c.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



There is only one person to blame for Heaps failures since he was handed every opportunity to succeed at BYU on a silver platter, and it isn't Jimmer or the fans expectations.

Can't be Jimmer's fault. Jimmer waited his turn on the bench, as Jake should have been willing to do.

While Im not a big fan of Lloyd, he is drawing attention to a phenomena that contributed to Jake's fall.

dmcougar wrote:
While Im not a big fan of Lloyd, he is drawing attention to a phenomena that contributed to Jake's fall.

Fan expectations didn't throw incomplete passes or stall drives. His play on the field lost him the starting job.



Now, if Jake is leaving because he doesn't think he can ever measure up to fan expectations like Jimmer did, then I understand how fan expectations may have led to his transferring. However, he was the one talking about national championships, so he did encourage the expectations. I think the not starting the game against Hawaii sealed the deal for Jake.



I could be completely wrong about this, but it seems the only logical explanation is that losing the starting job for next year sealed the deal for Jake. He wants to start now. He feels he deserves to start now. End of story.

Cougarfan87 wrote:

While Im not a big fan of Lloyd, he is drawing attention to a phenomena that contributed to Jake's fall.

I could be completely wrong about this, but it seems the only logical explanation is that losing the starting job for next year sealed the deal for Jake. He wants to start now. He feels he deserves to start now. End of story.

Well, he's going to have to wait at least a year to start now either way.

Jimmer came in almost unknown. No press conference. No private PR rep. No team of professional advisors. Jimmer didn't put on a BYU cap and promise a NC. Even at the height of his popularity Jimmer remained humble and appreciative of it all. Even as the nation's leading scorer and all of NCAA basketball behind him, Jimmer wasn't so bold as to predict a national title.



I refuse to read the Herald so don't know what the article says, but there should be no comparison between Jimmer and Heaps. Jimmer let his play set fan expectation. Heaps let his PR rep set expectations.



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The beginning of the end for Jake was when he tried to jump on the Jimmer-mania wagon by essentially declaring himself the heir-apparent to Jimmer-mania.



Remember the "You think Jimmer's got range?" clip of him throwing the ball through hoop from stands?



It was all down hill from there.

The vilification based on unsubstantiated presumptions is astounding.

its like the stopping of the mighty missouri, except your sources and presumptions aren't omniscient.

Filling in the gaps of info with near unknowable assertions do not make things true.

But people will have their hero and they will have their villan.

Hubris, like pride, sneaks in the back door. I know a lot of people who made a lot of money in real estate who thought they were smarter than most others, but who have now lost almost entire fortunes. Of course they are responsible. Of course they are left to clean up the mess that is their life. Of course they were not as smart as they thought. BUt to call them quitters? To call Jake out because of his weaknesses when 1000's of kids and fans and media and parents and others are pumping you up is a formidable force to withstand. And Jake didn't withstand it very well.

Jimmer was truly the exception in the way he battled off the pride. BUt most superstars fall. Is Jake's fall as bad as most who deal with stardom? No. Has he failed? NO! ONly he if doesn't get back up and try again--somewhere that won't bury him if he experiences set-backs.

Quite frankly, I find some posters' vilification of Heaps in the same vein as the self-righteous, pious, territorial mormonism that has given this Church undue challenges to overcome.

DO i think a mission would have helped Jake? Of course. Do I have cognitive dissonance over Steve Young not serving? NO. Do I blame Jake for believing he could do it Steve's way? No. Do Bronco and many team members? I think yes.

For some of you to say Jake was "given" more than any as to suggest that Jake didn't win the job at least in practice, is just revisionist thinking. Doesn't earning MVP of a bowl game grant quite a bit of "earning" the starting job the next year?

Lloyd is not blaming Jimmer. BUt your heaps-hating-villifying radar sure picked it up as such.

Not only did Jake not withstand the expectations, he pumped it up with talk of national championships and trying to put himself on par with Jimmer (someone else brought up the bit where he throws the football into the net). Anyone else ever remember a BYU QB doing a commercial about himself while at BYU????



I'm sorry, DM. The blame for expectations falls squarely on Heaps. That isn't villifying him. He hyped the expectations and failed to produce on the field in accordance with those expectations. Those are facts, not villification.



He is quitting the team when the opportunity is in front of him to have two more solid years at QB at BYU (and practically three and a half altogether). That would be more than enough to meet his dreams of going to the NFL. That is also a fact, not villification.



If I were Heaps' family member, I would try to teach him how to take personal responsibility and make the situation right, rather than endlessly trying to find the right situation. That's what President Hinkley's dad did when he told him to forget himself and go to work. That's what Steve Young's dad did when he told him he could quit but he couldn't come home because the Youngs aren't quitters.



Heaps has a golden opportunity to make the situation right with humility, patience, and hard work. Instead, he just wants to cut bait and get a fresh start. I think that is what frustrates me the most because I do believe he can be great at BYU. That isn't villifying him. It's expressing disappointment as a fan that I invested so much emotion into someone who isn't willing to redshirt one season even though he has not outplayed the person in front of him.

Gunk wrote:
Jimmer came in almost unknown. No press conference. No private PR rep. No team of professional advisors. Jimmer didn't put on a BYU cap and promise a NC. Even at the height of his popularity Jimmer remained humble and appreciative of it all. Even as the nation's leading scorer and all of NCAA basketball behind him, Jimmer wasn't so bold as to predict a national title.



I refuse to read the Herald so don't know what the article says, but there should be no comparison between Jimmer and Heaps. Jimmer let his play set fan expectation. Heaps let his PR rep set expectations.



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So, Bronco is not managing his PR very well when he also uses NC talk? Tsk, tsk, Bronco, you're slipping. What, would you have preferred him saying, "I want to be the Independent Conference Champ?" " I want to be PoY of the Independents?

I get that the presser was way over the top, and it was a huge set-up, so lets just keep giving it to Jake. He deserves all he is getting.

dmcougar wrote:

Jimmer came in almost unknown. No press conference. No private PR rep. No team of professional advisors. Jimmer didn't put on a BYU cap and promise a NC. Even at the height of his popularity Jimmer remained humble and appreciative of it all. Even as the nation's leading scorer and all of NCAA basketball behind him, Jimmer wasn't so bold as to predict a national title.



I refuse to read the Herald so don't know what the article says, but there should be no comparison between Jimmer and Heaps. Jimmer let his play set fan expectation. Heaps let his PR rep set expectations.



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So, Bronco is not managing his PR very well when he also uses NC talk? Tsk, tsk, Bronco, you're slipping. What, would you have preferred him saying, "I want to be the Independent Conference Champ?" " I want to be PoY of the Independents?

I get that the presser was way over the top, and it was a huge set-up, so lets just keep giving it to Jake. He deserves all he is getting.

LOL! Bronco is the head coach. And he doesn't say, "I'm going to bring BYU a National Championship." Bronco typically says his primary goal is to get BYU playing on a national level and hopefully in a national championship game. There is no time frame around. It could be next season, it could be a decade from now. That should be the goal of every head coach in college football.



Heaps, said he'd do it and would become one of the BYU greats. Heaps gave it a timeline (4 - 5 years) and he basically said it'd be because of him. He wanted the glory for himself.



Two years into the Heaps era and it isn't panning out like he thought, so rather than stick it out and still try to make good on the expectations he set, Heaps is ditching. It would be like me starting a new job, making a bunch of goals and then quiting before my evaluation so I wouldn't have to be held to the goals any longer.

"Surely I will do it, nevertheless give unto me thy glory"...I think that's a little too far.



I don't think Heaps wanted all the glory and credit. I think he had good intentions and saw himself as the person that could get BYU to the next level among the perrenial powers. His play just didn't match the hype yet. That doesn't mean it couldn't have with a little patience, humility, and hard work. But now we'll never know. That's the frustrating thing for me as a fan. He is only being asked to do what every other BYU great has done--sit a year, but he isn't willing.

Cougarfan87 wrote:
Not only did Jake not withstand the expectations, he pumped it up with talk of national championships and trying to put himself on par with Jimmer (someone else brought up the bit where he throws the football into the net). Anyone else ever remember a BYU QB doing a commercial about himself while at BYU????



No, but I remember a player who threw a beer can at the tv and said as multiple negative things about BYU and then later most fans embraced him as a brother.



I'm sorry, DM. The blame for expectations falls squarely on Heaps. That isn't villifying him. He hyped the expectations and failed to produce on the field in accordance with those expectations. Those are facts, not villification.



He failed to produce on the field. How about MVP of Bowl game? How about did something no other freshman was asked to do or did? Yes he blew it this year in multiple games.



He is quitting the team when the opportunity is in front of him to have two more solid years at QB at BYU (and practically three and a half altogether). That would be more than enough to meet his dreams of going to the NFL. That is also a fact, not vilification.





I agree with this point.





If I were Heaps' family member, I would try to teach him how to take personal responsibility and make the situation right, rather than endlessly trying to find the right situation. That's what President Hinkley's dad did when he told him to forget himself and go to work. That's what Steve Young's dad did when he told him he could quit but he couldn't come home because the Youngs aren't quitters.



Agreed.And its what I would teach my kids.



Heaps has a golden opportunity to make the situation right with humility, patience, and hard work. Instead, he just wants to cut bait and get a fresh start. I think that is what frustrates me the most because I do believe he can be great at BYU. That isn't villifying him. It's expressing disappointment as a fan that I invested so much emotion into someone who isn't willing to redshirt one season even though he has not outplayed the person in front of him.

THis is the point of my contention with most fans, maybe not you Cougarfan87. They want Jake to be responsible for their emotional investment. It is some of the dynamics of how vilification and scapegoating works. We are willing to accuse another and excuse ourselves. It is the great deceiver's plan. That's the irony. most fans don't want to take responsibility for their trusting in the arm of flesh and becoming emotionally invested. Its disappointing! They want somebody else to pay. So, we all place our sins on the goat and then kick him out or goat him out. Get over it. And quit villifying the kid to assuage your own misplaced emotional investment.

Cougarfan87 wrote:
"Surely I will do it, nevertheless give unto me thy glory"...I think that's a little too far.



I don't think Heaps wanted all the glory and credit. I think he had good intentions and saw himself as the person that could get BYU to the next level among the perrenial powers. His play just didn't match the hype yet. That doesn't mean it couldn't have with a little patience, humility, and hard work. But now we'll never know. That's the frustrating thing for me as a fan. He is only being asked to do what every other BYU great has done--sit a year, but he isn't willing.

Cougarfan, you are right one. This is how vilification works. People twist the facts just enough--even with a easy target like Jake, with his many faults, and the story just gets bigger and bigger. The tale gets taller and taller. whether its a hero or a villain. it happens the same way. Jake never said, "and it will be all because of me."

Isn't the sin of the press conference great enough? You guys have to horribilize it for more dramatic effect?

Cougarfan87 wrote:
"Surely I will do it, nevertheless give unto me thy glory"...I think that's a little too far.



I don't think Heaps wanted all the glory and credit. I think he had good intentions and saw himself as the person that could get BYU to the next level among the perrenial powers. His play just didn't match the hype yet. That doesn't mean it couldn't have with a little patience, humility, and hard work. But now we'll never know. That's the frustrating thing for me as a fan. He is only being asked to do what every other BYU great has done--sit a year, but he isn't willing.

LOL! I'm just playing the same game Dmcougar is. If he can whip out scriptural references and judge us all as sinners, being deceived by the deceiver and trusting in the arm of the flesh, then why can't I pull out a reference or two? Look at this beauty from Dmcougar:



"We are willing to accuse another and excuse ourselves. It is the great deceiver's plan. That's the irony. most fans don't want to take responsibility for their trusting in the arm of flesh and becoming emotionally invested. Its disappointing! They want somebody else to pay. So, we all place our sins on the goat and then kick him out or goat him out."



Dmcougar must be a seminary teacher or something. It's the oldest trick in the book on BYU forums. When you lack facts, resort to scriptural references to put your naysayers in "the right." The other trick is to call out grammar errors in an effort to assert superiority and divert attention from being wrong.



It's a football forum! Not Sunday school class. Time and a season for all things. :P

dmcougar wrote:
THis is the point of my contention with most fans, maybe not you Cougarfan87. They want Jake to be responsible for their emotional investment. It is some of the dynamics of how vilification and scapegoating works. We are willing to accuse another and excuse ourselves. It is the great deceiver's plan. That's the irony. most fans don't want to take responsibility for their trusting in the arm of flesh and becoming emotionally invested. Its disappointing! They want somebody else to pay. So, we all place our sins on the goat and then kick him out or goat him out. Get over it. And quit villifying the kid to assuage your own misplaced emotional investment.

I agree that we feel frustrated because we invested too much emotion into Jake Heaps. Well, I can't speak for others, but that is paritally how I feel.

But I haven't seen much villifying on this board. I don't think calling him a quitter is villifying him. He is quitting. I don't think pointing out that he hyped himself is villifying him. And I don't think that stating he hasn't lived up to the hype villifies him.



Now, wanting him to be a complete failure is certainly a natural man reaction and could be considered villification. I don't think people want that because they hate Jake Heaps, but more because they can't emotionally accept that a great player (if he does turn out to be great) left behind the school they love for greener pastures. If great players leave BYU, what does that mean about BYU and its coaches? It is a question some are not comfortable answering, even though it actually means nothing. How I value BYU is not dependent on how others value BYU. If how I valued things were dependent on other's perceptions, I should have another religion.



I don't want Jake to fail. I just don't think he will succeed because the deck will be stacked against him. He will have to learn the system the first year, and really only have one year to show what he can do. It is frustrating to watch him leave a great situation for something that is more likely to not pan out. I will not follow his career, not out of spite, but out of disinterest. I only really follow BYU. I will be shocked if I see him as a superstar on another team. Perhaps the best thing for him, though, will be to find out that there is more to life than football. I really wish, for his sake, that he would have served a mission. I don't think any of this would have been an issue then.

what grammar error callouts are you referring to? Are we minimizing now?

But you are right. I will cut out scriptural references, thats distracting. I will just talk about peoples need to modify the truth to fit their perception of reality.

See my post above. Which would you prefer, quoting a scripture or just bold-face lying and misrepresenting the facts. Or more deceptive, twisting the truth just enough to make the story sound worse but hardly perceptible so as to not have anyone notice? And worse, have a bunch of other folks who agree with your position willing to swallow the added bit of deceptive info and then have everybody agree and then that makes it ALL RIGHT.

HAIL to the Jimmer!!! My heart warms at his mention.



It is unreal how different two BYU athletes can be. The fact that Jimmer, with not a word of complaint, sat almost the entire first year on the bench increases my respect for him a thousandfold.

Disregarding the last 10 posts and responding directly to the DH article:



This argument would have a point if Jake had played at a 140 PER level, gone 10-2 as a starter, and we still drove him out of town. But Jake wasn't even playing on the fringes of greatness. Heck, for his last two games before being benched, he was one of the worst starting QBs in the country.

dmcougar wrote:
what grammar error callouts are you referring to? Are we minimizing now?

But you are right. I will cut out scriptural references, thats distracting. I will just talk about peoples need to modify the truth to fit their perception of reality.

See my post above. Which would you prefer, quoting a scripture or just bold-face lying and misrepresenting the facts. Or more deceptive, twisting the truth just enough to make the story sound worse but hardly perceptible so as to not have anyone notice? And worse, have a bunch of other folks who agree with your position willing to swallow the added bit of deceptive info and then have everybody agree and then that makes it ALL RIGHT.

Wow...I don't think anyone here is actively trying to deceive anyone. I think you're self-projecting here a bit.



I wasn't referring to you specifically when calling out grammar mistakes. It's just one of the more common "tactics" used my many on forums to assert superiority.



Fact: Heaps' and his entourage hired a publicists and staged a press event. I've done so many times in my career and will tell you right now everything is planned to a T right down to what socks to wear. Make no mistake, Heaps' promise of a national championship and becoming a QB great was choreographed. From the get go we were being marketed towards.



Fact: Heaps skipped the end of high school to play football and skipped a mission to play football, clearly sending the message to BYU fans football was his main priority. We were excited by such devotion and the devotion matched the grand promises.



Fact: Heaps performed adequately his freshman year. As well as a true freshman QB could and even showed flashes of brilliance, wetting our pallets.



Fact: Heaps spent the off season practicing and building the hype. He made videos to promote himself. Did ESPN interviews and did all he could to bring attention to himself and BYU. Don't kid yourself, this was all likely planned and once again choreographed by Heaps' marketing department.



Fact: Heaps came out his Sophomore year and grossly under-performed according to the expectations he and his marketing department set. He was ranked as one of the worst QBs in college football before being benched. In essence we didn't receive what we were sold.



Fact: Failing to deliver not only eroded fan support, but likely eroded teammates support. You think fans were the only ones to see the videos, articles, etc? Teammates were probably more aware of the Heaps marketing machine than we.



Fact: Heaps got benched and soon after plotted his exit rather than plotting his rebound. Doman and Bronco knew of his departure well over a month ago; yet, people criticize them for not holding on to him. Heaps made up his mind to leave over a month ago.



Fact: Heaps didn't accomplish anything close to what he promised and instead of sticking to his word pulled the plug (aka quit).



Fact: His departure and announcement has been once again completely handled by his marketing team, working with Bronco and Doman so as not to diminish either Heaps image or BYU's image. You can bet this was worked out behind closed doors.



Add up the parts and you actually get a fairly accurate sum.