Why the Free Pass / Teflon Touch for Riley?

Cougarbib2 wrote:

You said it "his mistakes" and he owns them. I do believe there is a double standard, and hope the coaching staff and team can fix it. I don't dislike Riley, and I don't dislike Jake, but I do believe one is held to a different standard. Equality is not very strong with the prevailing culture.

BS - sounds like the sort of nonsense Ute Trolls are posting to rile up EMO BYU fans against their own team. It was just explained to you. If you make mistakes making plays but you have more TD passes than Ints you get different treatment than the guy who had more Int than TD passes.



It is a risk vs reward analysis. Pretty easy to do. PER.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

I am not a Ute Troll, nor do i think that one QB is better than the other. I believe that there are more problems with the whole team. My original point was to say the grit it great when there is execution (which is what Bronco talks about all the time) to go with it. I love BYU football, and always will. Just an opinion, and it sure gets the blood of some pumping above boiling point. When someone is called out by the self proclaimed experts on this board for an opinion, or what they see as a problem is really ridiculous. And I don't expect anyone to think like I do. Give me your opinion, or stats if you want, but don't damn me for what I see, because we all can look foolish when we do so.

Heaps went 8/10 against Idaho State.



He threw nothing but 7 yard outs - which is all he was instructed to do, one of which got jumped after about the 5th time in a row running it for an INT. That throw was right to the receiver, just a good play by the defense. Not excusable, but we weren't running the full offense to make the defense pay for creeping up play after play.



You all act like he was 1 for 10 with negative 10 yards passing...

BlueIsBetter wrote:
Heaps went 8/10 against Idaho State.



He threw nothing but 7 yard outs - which is all he was instructed to do, one of which got jumped after about the 5th time in a row running it for an INT. That throw was right to the receiver, just a good play by the defense. Not excusable, but we weren't running the full offense to make the defense pay for creeping up play after play.



You all act like he was 1 for 10 with negative 10 yards passing...

I wasn't criticizing what he did as far as completed passes, I was criticizing what I saw from him which looked like more of the same of what we have seen from him all year. He was not looking at any of his reads except the 1st one. I don't think that when he throws a 7 yard out, that every reciever is running a 7 yard out. If that reciever is covered, he needs to look for someone else which I have not seen him do this year. I did like that he ran the tempo at a faster pace though, and I loved that he ran the ball for a short gain when the play broke down. The bottom line is, Riley Nelson is running the offense better then Jake right now and that is why he is starting and deserves to start.

against weaker teams... Riley Nelson is moving the ball about as well as Jake did earlier in the season. Only now we have somewhat of a running game (which, he is a part of).



But we actually have runners that can gain yards on their own, which we didn't have at all the first 4 games.



And he did move the ball against Idaho St. For a couple scores if I remember right.



I can tell you with absolute confidence that he was playing a very restricted game. I was surprised, like I think everyone else, that Bronco even let him pass the ball.

BlueIsBetter wrote:
against weaker teams... Riley Nelson is moving the ball about as well as Jake did earlier in the season. Only now we have somewhat of a running game (which, he is a part of).

I'm very curious to see what stats you are using to make this claim. Or are you just making this up?

hawkwing wrote:

against weaker teams... Riley Nelson is moving the ball about as well as Jake did earlier in the season. Only now we have somewhat of a running game (which, he is a part of).

I'm very curious to see what stats you are using to make this claim. Or are you just making this up?

Jake moved the ball well in the first half of the Texas game, Utah game, and the Ole miss game.



That was without any semblance of a running game, and the Oline sucking (which they have continued to this day against good teams.)



There were a bunch of drives that ended in fumbles, and missed FG attempts at the first of the season. I don't really care to look it up, but we had a lot of drives under Jake, again, without a running game.

BlueIsBetter wrote:

BlueIsBetter wrote:
against weaker teams... Riley Nelson is moving the ball about as well as Jake did earlier in the season. Only now we have somewhat of a running game (which, he is a part of).

I'm very curious to see what stats you are using to make this claim. Or are you just making this up?

Jake moved the ball well in the first half of the Texas game, Utah game, and the Ole miss game.



That was without any semblance of a running game, and the Oline sucking (which they have continued today.)



There were a bunch of drives that ended in fumbles, and missed FG attempts at the first of the season.

So basically it's based off of your "feel" of how the games went at the start of the season. And not attributing the fact that our running game works better BECAUSE Riley Nelson is in.

I have mentioned that Riley is a part of the running game increase in this thread about 4 posts up,

Here are the actual stats:



Att - Comp - Yards - TDs - Ints - Rushing Yards by team (excluding QB)

Ole Miss

Jake Heaps: 38 - 24 - 225 - 1 - 1 - 103

Texas

Jake Heaps: 38 - 22 - 192 - 1 - 2 - 48

Utah

Jake Heaps: 50 - 27 - 305 - 1 - 1 - 42

TCU

Riley Nelson: 29 - 15 - 215 - 1 - 2 - 55



So what I see from this is that Riley Nelson got basically the same amount of help from his running backs that Jake Heaps did.



Of course this begs the question, is it fair to compare teams as bad as Ole Miss and Utah to TCU who is far and above a better defensive team?

frdbtr wrote:
You can't spot bad teams 21 points and win let alone a well coached team like TCU.

Recent (24 hours ago) history and fans of the Baltimore Ravens would beg to differ...



Rice, Ravens Overcome 21-point Deficit



Although I don't know if the Cardinals still qualify as just a "bad" team...

hawkwing wrote:
Here are the actual stats:



Att - Comp - Yards - TDs - Ints - Rushing Yards by team (excluding QB)

Ole Miss

Jake Heaps: 38 - 24 - 225 - 1 - 1 - 103

Texas

Jake Heaps: 38 - 22 - 192 - 1 - 2 - 48

Utah

Jake Heaps: 50 - 27 - 305 - 1 - 1 - 42

TCU

Riley Nelson: 29 - 15 - 215 - 1 - 2 - 55



So what I see from this is that Riley Nelson got basically the same amount of help from his running backs that Jake Heaps did.



Of course this begs the question, is it fair to compare teams as bad as Ole Miss and Utah to TCU who is far and above a better defensive team?

Utah is actually a better defensive team than TCU this year. Against better competition. And it's not very close, even. Also, Texas has a better defense statistically across the boards than TCU and in some cases Utah. And Texas has played a lot of good teams this year, unlike TCU.



Look at the stats. ;)

In no game, against any defense was Jake Heaps successful for more than a handful of drives.



There have been entire games where Riley Nelson was very successful and there has only be a handful of drives total the last four games where Riley failed to move the ball effectively.



The

mgdhunter wrote:
I am not a Ute Troll, nor do i think that one QB is better than the other. I believe that there are more problems with the whole team. My original point was to say the grit it great when there is execution (which is what Bronco talks about all the time) to go with it. I love BYU football, and always will. Just an opinion, and it sure gets the blood of some pumping above boiling point. When someone is called out by the self proclaimed experts on this board for an opinion, or what they see as a problem is really ridiculous. And I don't expect anyone to think like I do. Give me your opinion, or stats if you want, but don't damn me for what I see, because we all can look foolish when we do so.

This is not true. You do think one QB is better.



Your original point was not to talk about the grit and execution, it was to castigate fans who you thought were giving Riley a "free pass" or granting him teflon and above criticism.



When no one believed your claim. When you provided no stats or quotes from other posters that were giving him a pass or trying to sugar coat his performance you changed your argument.



You didn't see anything. You "saw" what you wanted to see.

mgdhunter wrote:



I am not a Ute Troll, nor do i think that one QB is better than the other. I believe that there are more problems with the whole team. My original point was to say the grit it great when there is execution (which is what Bronco talks about all the time) to go with it. I love BYU football, and always will. Just an opinion, and it sure gets the blood of some pumping above boiling point. When someone is called out by the self proclaimed experts on this board for an opinion, or what they see as a problem is really ridiculous. And I don't expect anyone to think like I do. Give me your opinion, or stats if you want, but don't damn me for what I see, because we all can look foolish when we do so.

Don't sweat it. I've contributed to the Cougar Club and they called me a Ute Troll also. Football is more complex than PER's and the like. USU Coach Anderson said that after Riley came in, they couldn't load the box with 7 like they could with Jake. They couldn't adjust to the change on the fly. USU wasn't the only team loading the box with 7 and the coaching staff knew it was coming week after week. Yet the game plan did not adjust. There is more than one player, yet the QB gets most of the praise or blame....

BlueIsBetter wrote:
Heaps went 8/10 against Idaho State.



He threw nothing but 7 yard outs - which is all he was instructed to do, one of which got jumped after about the 5th time in a row running it for an INT. That throw was right to the receiver, just a good play by the defense. Not excusable, but we weren't running the full offense to make the defense pay for creeping up play after play.



You all act like he was 1 for 10 with negative 10 yards passing...

It was intercepted becasue Jake locked onto the receiver, never looked off the receiver, never pump faked, I am surprised he didn't point right at him and then throw. Now I wonder if he even did that. Go back and count and see if it was really after 5 in a row or much, much earlier. I don't recall for sure - just seemed early.



I have no issue that Jake was throwing short and supposedly safe passes, but just because it was right to the receiver does not make it a good pass - not when he is covered and the defender has an even better shot at it.

SpiffCoug. I have not said anything about one being better than the other. I said both have made mistakes, but one is being judged differently. We can debate all day, but would that really do any good? Both QB's have good and bad, and I'm not sure either one is the best option right now. Both have contributed in losses with mistakes, and I hope someone can fix it.

SenorCougar wrote:

I am not a Ute Troll, nor do i think that one QB is better than the other. I believe that there are more problems with the whole team. My original point was to say the grit it great when there is execution (which is what Bronco talks about all the time) to go with it. I love BYU football, and always will. Just an opinion, and it sure gets the blood of some pumping above boiling point. When someone is called out by the self proclaimed experts on this board for an opinion, or what they see as a problem is really ridiculous. And I don't expect anyone to think like I do. Give me your opinion, or stats if you want, but don't damn me for what I see, because we all can look foolish when we do so.

Don't sweat it. I've contributed to the Cougar Club and they called me a Ute Troll also. Football is more complex than PER's and the like. USU Coach Anderson said that after Riley came in, they couldn't load the box with 7 like they could with Jake. They couldn't adjust to the change on the fly. USU wasn't the only team loading the box with 7 and the coaching staff knew it was coming week after week. Yet the game plan did not adjust. There is more than one player, yet the QB gets most of the praise or blame....

This is a good post. While I respect the PER, there is no one single statistical measure that should define how one evaluates or develops a perspective in sports - particularly football. Statistical analysis are reactive in nature...meaning, they inform on things that we have already observed. While they can be used to project, they are unreliable in sports because each game is a game unto itself. Statistics cannot take into account strategy, schemes, and other conditions that impact performance.



Like in life, quantitative data give context to considerations, but most decisions are made qualitatively or by viscera.



While I have been very impressed and pleased with Nelson, I do think the fan base would have ripped Heaps to shreds for some of the same mistakes...but that is because those mistakes would be placed in a context of general futility. This does not make you a troll, nor does this mean folks are just Heaps haters.



I am not convinced that all of Jake's troubles are simply in his head. I do think there has been a bit of a coaching problem. I do think there is a cultural influence. I do think that Heaps is easily a better quarterback than Nelson and BYUs best chance for reaching higher places is to get Heaps (not Nelson) playing at an optimal level.

Are you saying it's impossible to get a QB playing at an optimal level on the sidelines? Is it better for a QB to come in and lose to cupcakes, does that speed up and intensify reaching optimal levels?

hawkwing wrote:
Are you saying it's impossible to get a QB playing at an optimal level on the sidelines? Is it better for a QB to come in and lose to cupcakes, does that speed up and intensify reaching optimal levels?

This. Right now on the sidelines Jake should be learning from a text-book case study on how to fire up a team and how to create time when there is none, and how to check off and check down and how to play with heart and have fun doing it. He gets to see it first-hand. Without being benched he would never have gotten this opportunity.



[ Post made via Mobile Device ] http://cougarcorner.com/images/mobile.png" alt="" loading="lazy" style="max-width:100%">

Its better to watch a guy make an error who's willing to take a hit, then to watch a guy make an error who cowers away from everyone.