Independance vs Big XII

I have been amused watching all the angst around the possible move to the Big XII. Too many people think relevance comes from being in a conference. Washington St., Colorado, Oregon State, Iowa St., Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Rutgers, Louisville, Pitt, USF would all disagree with you. Just a few examples. None of these teams are relevant, but all are in a BCS conference. I would like to refute some of the arguments that too many have about BCS inclusion.



1. Relevance. Relevance comes from winning. Non one cares if you are in a BCS conference if you lose all the time. I think BYU would lose more than win in the Big XII.

2. Better recruiting. Being in a BCS conference won't overcome the honor code.

3. BSC access. Don't see that changing for us in the Big XII. See #1.



Right now, I would rather be a BYU fan than a Utah fan. They will likely start the season 2-5, 0-4 in the Pac 12. No bowl game this year isn't out of the question for Utah. Kind of funny given all the Ute fans I heard saying they were in the Rose Bowl this year. Utah has had one team that would win the Pac 12. 2004. 2008 would not win the Pac 12 that year. Not a chance.



In my opinion there is one positive for going to the Big XII. Better bowl affiliation. But you still have to win, and I am not convinced that we would.

Relevance also comes from perceptions, which shape opinion. BYU in a BCS league adds more weight to winning than BYU as an Indy. You gotta win either way, but BCS winning trumps Indy winning.



If BYU said no because they are worried about losing more, well, no respect for that.

So, how about this point of view. Would you rather be a season ticket holder for BYU or the utes right now (take out your fan bias and think about this one). BYU's home schedule sucks, I would hate to pay for season tickets for that every year. Now, what if we were bringing teams like Texas, OU, kansas, KSU ect here every other year? That is the major difference.

Lawboy wrote:
Relevance also comes from perceptions, which shape opinion. BYU in a BCS league adds more weight to winning than BYU as an Indy. You gotta win either way, but BCS winning trumps Indy winning.



If BYU said no because they are worried about losing more, well, no respect for that.

Agree. Relevance comes from winning. Utah and Boise St. have proved that. But BYU winning in a BCS conference is not nearly as likely as many think it is.

frdbtr wrote:
So, how about this point of view. Would you rather be a season ticket holder for BYU or the utes right now (take out your fan bias and think about this one). BYU's home schedule sucks, I would hate to pay for season tickets for that every year. Now, what if we were bringing teams like Texas, OU, kansas, KSU ect here every other year? That is the major difference.

I am a season ticket holder at BYU and this year sucks as far as home schedule. But winning is much more fun than losing. I would rather be a BYU fan right now than Utah. The future schedule will be better as and independent.



I honestly find it hilarious that people would rather have TX, OU, Kansas, KSU, etc every year and lose than have an easier schedule and win. This year would be miserable if we had to play all those teams.



If we beat those teams, it is amazing, but if we lose to them, who cares who it is. That argument makes absolutely no sense.

northerncougar wrote:

So, how about this point of view. Would you rather be a season ticket holder for BYU or the utes right now (take out your fan bias and think about this one). BYU's home schedule sucks, I would hate to pay for season tickets for that every year. Now, what if we were bringing teams like Texas, OU, kansas, KSU ect here every other year? That is the major difference.

I am a season ticket holder at BYU and this year sucks as far as home schedule. But winning is much more fun than losing. I would rather be a BYU fan right now than Utah. The future schedule will be better as and independent.



I honestly find it hilarious that people would rather have TX, OU, Kansas, KSU, etc every year and lose than have an easier schedule and win. This year would be miserable if we had to play all those teams.



If we beat those teams, it is amazing, but if we lose to them, who cares who it is. That argument makes absolutely no sense.

totally agree. I don't go to football games at LES because of the visiting team. I go to watch BYU, and it's much more fun when it ends with a W.

northerncougar wrote:

So, how about this point of view. Would you rather be a season ticket holder for BYU or the utes right now (take out your fan bias and think about this one). BYU's home schedule sucks, I would hate to pay for season tickets for that every year. Now, what if we were bringing teams like Texas, OU, kansas, KSU ect here every other year? That is the major difference.

I am a season ticket holder at BYU and this year sucks as far as home schedule. But winning is much more fun than losing. I would rather be a BYU fan right now than Utah. The future schedule will be better as and independent.



I honestly find it hilarious that people would rather have TX, OU, Kansas, KSU, etc every year and lose than have an easier schedule and win. This year would be miserable if we had to play all those teams.



If we beat those teams, it is amazing, but if we lose to them, who cares who it is. That argument makes absolutely no sense.

I would rather be 0-12 and a BYU fan then 12-0 and a utah fan but you still have to envy their home schedule this year with teams like Washington and what not from the pac 12. I want to be in a BCS conference and win. It is a chicken thing to say "I like independance because we have a better shot at a winning record. How many years have we complained about the national perception that we aren't good even though we are winning big every week because we have a weak schedule? (2001 anyone?) The Big 12 is where its at. By the way, BYU is scheduling itself into irrelevance simply by scheduling all its hard games on the road.

frdbtr wrote:

frdbtr wrote:
So, how about this point of view. Would you rather be a season ticket holder for BYU or the utes right now (take out your fan bias and think about this one). BYU's home schedule sucks, I would hate to pay for season tickets for that every year. Now, what if we were bringing teams like Texas, OU, kansas, KSU ect here every other year? That is the major difference.

I am a season ticket holder at BYU and this year sucks as far as home schedule. But winning is much more fun than losing. I would rather be a BYU fan right now than Utah. The future schedule will be better as and independent.



I honestly find it hilarious that people would rather have TX, OU, Kansas, KSU, etc every year and lose than have an easier schedule and win. This year would be miserable if we had to play all those teams.



If we beat those teams, it is amazing, but if we lose to them, who cares who it is. That argument makes absolutely no sense.

I would rather be 0-12 and a BYU fan then 12-0 and a utah fan but you still have to envy their home schedule this year with teams like Washington and what not from the pac 12. I want to be in a BCS conference and win. It is a chicken thing to say "I like independance because we have a better shot at a winning record. How many years have we complained about the national perception that we aren't good even though we are winning big every week because we have a weak schedule? (2001 anyone?) The Big 12 is where its at. By the way, BYU is scheduling itself into irrelevance simply by scheduling all its hard games on the road.

I agree about Utah's home schedule. That isn't the point. How many Utah fans at the end of the season are going to say: "Wow, we suck but it is okay because I got to see those really cool Pac 12 teams destroy my team." It's laughable to think that is going to happen. If you win, great, but if not...



It isn't a chicken thing, it is a realistic thing. 1996 was the last great BYU team. In 15 years we have had maybe two teams, 2006 and 2009, that might compete in the Big XII. Every other team since then would have been destroyed in the Big XII.



Call it what you want, I call it reality. The problem is that too many people think being in the Big XII brings relevance and winning. It brings different opponents here. Relevance comes from winning. We won't win because we won't be able to out recruit the other teams. And they will be gunning for us each year because we are in the conference. Just like Utah is learning this year.

If we play mostly cream puffs the teams and staff will only aspire to be good enough to beat the cream puffs. Mabye occasionally "rise up" to beat a tough opponent, but the fact of the matter is most times you only play well enough to beat your opponent.



BCS affiliation immediately, in theory, improves our strength of schedule. The team and coaches are then forced to play at that level.



As far as recruiting goes, it will help some but not that much. In the case where you have a "big time" recruit being pursued by top schools in BCS conferences that is also considering BYU it will likely get them push them over the fence to the BYU side.

frdbtr wrote:
...Would you rather be a season ticket holder for BYU or the utes right now (take out your fan bias and think about this one). BYU's home schedule sucks, I would hate to pay for season tickets for that every year. Now, what if we were bringing teams like Texas, OU, kansas, KSU ect here every other year? That is the major difference.

If the question comes to your mind if you should follow BYU or Utah because of the conference they are in, then in my book you were really never a BYU fan. You're a bandwagon rider. That's fine, but don't purport to be one and make such a question. I'm dyed in wool blue, through and through.

EM_Puma wrote:

...Would you rather be a season ticket holder for BYU or the utes right now (take out your fan bias and think about this one). BYU's home schedule sucks, I would hate to pay for season tickets for that every year. Now, what if we were bringing teams like Texas, OU, kansas, KSU ect here every other year? That is the major difference.

If the question comes to your mind if you should follow BYU or Utah because of the conference they are in, then in my book you were really never a BYU fan. You're a bandwagon rider. That's fine, but don't purport to be one and make such a question. I'm dyed in wool blue, through and through.

reading comprehension dude. I never said I would rather watch the utes then BYU, I said that their home schedule is 10000X better then ours right now. Also if you read a few posts down from this one, you will also see another comment I made about being a BYU fan vs being a ute fan.

I'm not saying we shouldn't go to a BCS conference. The Big XII just might be the best thing to ever happen to BYU. But, if you honestly, unbiasedly look at it, you have to admit that the potential for it to be a disaster is pretty high.



Scheduling, potential, etc. mean nothing in the long run if you don't win. I haven't heard a single, rational person say, "Wow, losing to TX this year was cool, because, well, it was TX."

Lawboy wrote:
Relevance also comes from perceptions, which shape opinion. BYU in a BCS league adds more weight to winning than BYU as an Indy. You gotta win either way, but BCS winning trumps Indy winning.



If BYU said no because they are worried about losing more, well, no respect for that.

I am a huge BYU fan and I am completely disapointed about staying INDY if that happens. Byu has a terrible home SCHED and lawboy was correct. A BCS Conf is as good as it gets. The big 12 is stable now and there is no reason we should not be invited. BYU was the top choice for weeks and they demanded to much. The ADMIN really screwed this up. And all BYU fans that have any sense about the world of college football understand how much they screwed up. If you are not in a BCS confrence you are considered a nobody (with the exception of ND because of their special deal with the BCS). Bottom line is this is a terrible day for BYU sports/football and the start of many recruits deciding not to go to BYU because the only good games they have are road games and the home games are a joke and even with 10 wins they will play in a pathetic bowl game. Don't be suprised to see Dave Rose take off in the near future for bigger and better things "EX=BCS CONF"

bcsbuster wrote:

Relevance also comes from perceptions, which shape opinion. BYU in a BCS league adds more weight to winning than BYU as an Indy. You gotta win either way, but BCS winning trumps Indy winning.



If BYU said no because they are worried about losing more, well, no respect for that.

I am a huge BYU fan and I am completely disapointed about staying INDY if that happens. Byu has a terrible home SCHED and lawboy was correct. A BCS Conf is as good as it gets. The big 12 is stable now and there is no reason we should not be invited. BYU was the top choice for weeks and they demanded to much. The ADMIN really screwed this up. And all BYU fans that have any sense about the world of college football understand how much they screwed up. If you are not in a BCS confrence you are considered a nobody (with the exception of ND because of their special deal with the BCS). Bottom line is this is a terrible day for BYU sports/football and the start of many recruits deciding not to go to BYU because the only good games they have are road games and the home games are a joke and even with 10 wins they will play in a pathetic bowl game. Don't be suprised to see Dave Rose take off in the near future for bigger and better things "EX=BCS CONF"

Do you think BYU being in a BCS conference is better no matter what happens, or only if BYU wins in that conference?

northerncougar wrote:

Lawboy wrote:
Relevance also comes from perceptions, which shape opinion. BYU in a BCS league adds more weight to winning than BYU as an Indy. You gotta win either way, but BCS winning trumps Indy winning.



If BYU said no because they are worried about losing more, well, no respect for that.

I am a huge BYU fan and I am completely disapointed about staying INDY if that happens. Byu has a terrible home SCHED and lawboy was correct. A BCS Conf is as good as it gets. The big 12 is stable now and there is no reason we should not be invited. BYU was the top choice for weeks and they demanded to much. The ADMIN really screwed this up. And all BYU fans that have any sense about the world of college football understand how much they screwed up. If you are not in a BCS confrence you are considered a nobody (with the exception of ND because of their special deal with the BCS). Bottom line is this is a terrible day for BYU sports/football and the start of many recruits deciding not to go to BYU because the only good games they have are road games and the home games are a joke and even with 10 wins they will play in a pathetic bowl game. Don't be suprised to see Dave Rose take off in the near future for bigger and better things "EX=BCS CONF"

Do you think BYU being in a BCS conference is better no matter what happens, or only if BYU wins in that conference?

Being in a BCS Conf would equals wins. Do you realize how many more LDS and non LDS athletes would come to BYU if they were in a BCS conf. Manti Teo would prob be here now as well as X and many others. The recruiting in a BCS conference would be tremendous for BYU.

bcsbuster wrote:
Do you realize how many more LDS and non LDS athletes would come to BYU if they were in a BCS conf. Manti Teo would prob be here now as well as X and many others.

YEAH!! Because we'd suddenly stop worrying about alcohol (Teo) and weed (X)!!!!!!



:roll:



Ask Iowa State, Rutgers, Washington State, etc. just how awesome it is to be in a BCS conference as a perpetual loser. Those super-human recruits just keep flowing through the doors I bet.

snoscythe wrote:

Do you realize how many more LDS and non LDS athletes would come to BYU if they were in a BCS conf. Manti Teo would prob be here now as well as X and many others.

YEAH!! Because we'd suddenly stop worrying about alcohol (Teo) and weed (X)!!!!!!



:roll:



Ask Iowa State, Rutgers, Washington State, etc. just how awesome it is to be in a BCS conference as a perpetual loser. Those super-human recruits just keep flowing through the doors I bet.

Go WSU!!

bcsbuster wrote:

bcsbuster wrote:

Relevance also comes from perceptions, which shape opinion. BYU in a BCS league adds more weight to winning than BYU as an Indy. You gotta win either way, but BCS winning trumps Indy winning.



If BYU said no because they are worried about losing more, well, no respect for that.

I am a huge BYU fan and I am completely disapointed about staying INDY if that happens. Byu has a terrible home SCHED and lawboy was correct. A BCS Conf is as good as it gets. The big 12 is stable now and there is no reason we should not be invited. BYU was the top choice for weeks and they demanded to much. The ADMIN really screwed this up. And all BYU fans that have any sense about the world of college football understand how much they screwed up. If you are not in a BCS confrence you are considered a nobody (with the exception of ND because of their special deal with the BCS). Bottom line is this is a terrible day for BYU sports/football and the start of many recruits deciding not to go to BYU because the only good games they have are road games and the home games are a joke and even with 10 wins they will play in a pathetic bowl game. Don't be suprised to see Dave Rose take off in the near future for bigger and better things "EX=BCS CONF"

Do you think BYU being in a BCS conference is better no matter what happens, or only if BYU wins in that conference?

Being in a BCS Conf would equals wins. Do you realize how many more LDS and non LDS athletes would come to BYU if they were in a BCS conf. Manti Teo would prob be here now as well as X and many others. The recruiting in a BCS conference would be tremendous for BYU.

This is what I expected and the argument is crazy. A BCS conf doesn't equal wins. It might matter for a few more LDS athletes but it won't matter much for non-lds athletes. The honor code won't be any different.



Bronco: "Yes, you have to cut your hair, you can't drink coffee, you can't drink alcohol, you can't have sex until you are married, you have to be involved with a religion and recommended by your religious leader. If you break any of these rules you will likely be kicked off the team and out of school."



Recruit: "Hmmm. But you are in a BCS conference, right?"



Bronco: "Yep."



Recruit: "I'm in."



Even if we get some higher profile athletes, how much more painful will it be when they are kicked off the team? Our best RB since Staley couldn't make it here, and he is LDS. What crazy stuff are you sniffing to think that being in a BCS conference is going to change that?

As for winning, I would go to a BCS conference and think we have a fair shot, as long as that BCS conference isn't the Big 12 or the SEC. I think we would compete very well in any of the other BCS conferences. The problem is that the Big 12 is really good and IMO, better than the SEC some years.

FWIW, I trust the BYU administration. If they feel that going to the Big 12 would be at too high of a cost, then I'm OK with being an independant. I'd like for s to be in the Big 12, but I'm uncomfortable with selling our souls to do so.