Nelson: Not Eating Crow (Yet)

Friends...I know I will take heat for this. I am not eating crow over my concerns about Riley Nelson as a division 1 starting quarterback. I just don't think he can throw the ball consistently well enough to win important games.



I am happy for BYU and for Riley. I do think he should start because he has earned it and because the team responds to him. He reminds me of Brandon Doman in a lot of ways - with one notable exception: Doman had enough ability to throw the ball well enough that he could play quarterback in the NFL.



Basically, Riley caught the USU defense off guard. When defenses prepare for him all week, I don't think you are going to see the same magical results. We have seen Nelson play enough to know what we have with him. Bronco, in essence, acknowledged this after the game.



Admiring someone for grit and leadership can really only go so far. However, those two elements are something I wish Nelson could give to Heaps. Admiring someone for their capacity and ability can only go so far...something I wish Heaps could give to Nelson.



As a fan base, I think we need to temper how respond to both Nelson and Heaps. Yes, Heaps needed to be replaced...but he does not need to be thrown under the bus. Yes, Nelson inspired the team and made some big plays...but we need not pretend he is something that he is not.



Nelson can prove me wrong, and I hope he does, but this game reeks of catching a team unprepared - NOT that we have found something we didn't know existed in Nelson.



Maybe I will have crow for dinner later this month.

I don't care what anyone's diet habits are. Nelson has got the job done time and time again this year when he's been in the game.



PS- where are all the "We just won a game, quit ripping on the QB" threads that we see after a Heaps win? ;)

declocoug wrote:
I don't care what anyone's diet habits are. Nelson has got the job done time and time again this year when he's been in the game.



PS- where are all the "We just won a game, quit ripping on the QB" threads that we see after a Heaps win? ;)

Nelson came through huge tonight, in a way that I don't think Lark could have. But I agree with the OP. I loved how Nelson played, but I don't think that style will work for 60 minutes. To me it seemed like a change of pace back or the third down back who comes in on 3rd and 12 and takes a draw play for 15. It is a huge play but it worked primarily because nobody was expecting it, and it wouldn't work every down.



Nelson does not have a big enough arm to really stretch the field. On the deep pass to Jacobson he wound up and gave it all he could and it was only good for 40 yards. Plus he has fluttered some balls, notably the 4th down pass against UCF...terrible.



I have always been happy to have Nelson on the team because of how much heart he has, and I was so relieved to see him in the game last night (maybe more so to not see Heaps in the game) but I am not sure he will work for 60 minutes. It would be nice to have a QB who can run, or extend plays (because that was how our WRs got open) but he needs to have greater accuracy. I would like to see Lark get more reps and some playing time, but I won't worry so much about Nelson.



Of course Nelson doesn't need to practice that much since most of his big plays don't work like how they were drawn up.

When you really look at our schedule Nelson should be OK in every one but TCU, which we weren't supposed to win anyway. That leaves us at 9-3 right were we were projected and with a win in the Bowl a 10 win season. I agree with everything you are saying but it really doesn't matter. I don't think we have anyone else ready to do better. Give Heaps some time to season/mature and next year see who can step up.

Isola wrote:



Of course Nelson doesn't need to practice that much since most of his big plays don't work like how they were drawn up.

You mean they didn't draw up the tip the Mathews? :bug:

I can understand, when you've bought in so completely to the hype of 5 stars and the "#1 QB" it can be really hard to let the truth back into your life. Kind of like joining a cult and then trying to transition back out of it.



It's time to grow up and quit whining about the tipped touch down pass. The play was a foul by the defense and not the best throw. But guess what, it went for a touchdown, and even if it hadn't there is no doubt that we would have scored on the next play. Nelson was unstoppable on the drive.



You'll get there in time.

If you can't eat crow about Nelson, than you are more a fan of a player than the team.

SpiffCoug wrote:
If you can't eat crow about Nelson, than you are more a fan of a player than the team.

+100.

pjmuli wrote:
Friends...I know I will take heat for this. I am not eating crow over my concerns about Riley Nelson as a division 1 starting quarterback. I just don't think he can throw the ball consistently well enough to win important games.

Is there someone else who can? Because Riley was a hell of a lot more consistent last night that Heaps has been all season.

Schmoe wrote:

Friends...I know I will take heat for this. I am not eating crow over my concerns about Riley Nelson as a division 1 starting quarterback. I just don't think he can throw the ball consistently well enough to win important games.

Is there someone else who can? Because Riley was a hell of a lot more consistent last night that Heaps has been all season.

I have an Idea - how bout we watch a healthy Riley Nelson play 4 quarters for the first time in his BYU career and see. Then we can listen to the Heaps apologists tell us how lucky were to win with his ugly throws and predictability instead of defending Heaps "dropped passes" as why we lost.



These guys didn't want to give Nelson a 2nd series - let alone 4 quarters.



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I keep thinking about the FSU game last year. They shut down the QB draw and the offense. The OC will need to add something else to the Riley offense to make it work.

Riley was a lot different last year. Last year, he got the ball, took about 2 steps and then took off running. Last night he ran a few times, but most of the time he actually took time to try and make a play by throwing it. If he's actually trying to pass, defenses will have to plan for that rather than knowing that 19/20 times Riley will take off like last year. Let's see what a healthy Riley can do for a game before we say "oh we saw what he could do last year, it's not the answer for us". He earned his chance last night.

Devbo wrote:
Riley was a lot different last year. Last year, he got the ball, took about 2 steps and then took off running. Last night he ran a few times, but most of the time he actually took time to try and make a play by throwing it. If he's actually trying to pass, defenses will have to plan for that rather than knowing that 19/20 times Riley will take off like last year. Let's see what a healthy Riley can do for a game before we say "oh we saw what he could do last year, it's not the answer for us". He earned his chance last night.

On the throw to McKay, afterwards, he mentioned to Bronco (who mentioned in post game) that he knew he didn't have time to run it, that he had to make a throw.



That tells me 3 things about the mindset. (to say nothing of the scrambling and presence he had, which was amazing.)



1) That he is a smart kid. Which, I think he is going into med school, so that tells you anyways.



2) That his inclination is to run in that situation - which is okay, just what it is, and I think that we all know that. But it is nice to see that he can hopefully temper that when we need a pass.



3) Dude just willed a win.



Bottom line (and here is my true fanhood coming out ;) ): I saw more out of the Riley offense, more effort out of all involved: yes the wr's caught the ball better, and laid out for it, yes the defense played better, (i still think the Oline sucks, but maybe running boots and scrambling will help that out).



I saw a BYU, drive the field, sock it to your momma BYU offense for the first time since late last year against scrubby mountain worst teams. The Heaps offense had glimpses of it so far (unfortunately ending in TO's most of the time by Heaps himself and sometimes others), but that was a full on BYU attack. It wasn't traditional, but it was exciting, and I'll take that.



I hope he can do it for a full 4 quarters when being gameplanned against. I think that the next few games will be a good measure of that. If he can't continue the same type of elevated play against bad, bad teams (and I fully expect him to, and will be cheering that he does the whole way) when they are full on taking away a qb run and making him throw, then we got to figure that out.



Right now, Riley is our only effective running game. Period. We'll see what happens when teams take that away from us. (hopefully throws for 400 yards and 4 TD's.)

hawkwing wrote:

If you can't eat crow about Nelson, than you are more a fan of a player than the team.

+100.

What is up with this accusatory language? One thing I will say about the two of you is that your rhetoric is very polarizing.



There is a decent chance that Heaps starts next week. What will the two of you do then? Continue to slander to coaches and players?



Oh, but wait, that would imply being more of a fan of a player than a team.

pjmuli wrote:

SpiffCoug wrote:
If you can't eat crow about Nelson, than you are more a fan of a player than the team.

+100.

What is up with this accusatory language? One thing I will say about the two of you is that your rhetoric is very polarizing.



There is a decent chance that Heaps starts next week. What will the two of you do then? Continue to slander to coaches and players?



Oh, but wait, that would imply being more of a fan of a player than a team.

I think the standard that I have for Jake Heaps is well documented and very fair. A PER of 136. You may think that I am anti-Jake Heaps, but you're dead wrong. No one was more excited about a spectacular Jake Heaps season than I was. The evidence is in the countless pre-season posts and podcasts for everyone to see and hear. But if a player cannot play to a minimum standard then that player needs to step back and see if someone else can.



Because I am a fan of the team I can accept that occasionally this will happen and it will lead to Detmers, Domans, Youngs and other players stepping up and leading the team.



If Nelson cannot maintain a PER of 136, then I will want to see what another option can do.

hawkwing wrote:

hawkwing wrote:

If you can't eat crow about Nelson, than you are more a fan of a player than the team.

+100.

What is up with this accusatory language? One thing I will say about the two of you is that your rhetoric is very polarizing.



There is a decent chance that Heaps starts next week. What will the two of you do then? Continue to slander to coaches and players?



Oh, but wait, that would imply being more of a fan of a player than a team.

I think the standard that I have for Jake Heaps is well documented and very fair. A PER of 136. You may think that I am anti-Jake Heaps, but you're dead wrong. No one was more excited about a spectacular Jake Heaps season than I was. The evidence is in the countless pre-season posts and podcasts for everyone to see and hear. But if a player cannot play to a minimum standard then that player needs to step back and see if someone else can.



Because I am a fan of the team I can accept that occasionally this will happen and it will lead to Detmers, Domans, Youngs and other players stepping up and leading the team.



If Nelson cannot maintain a PER of 136, then I will want to see what another option can do.

This is a fair post...and no, I do not think you are anti-Heaps. I just don't think that anyone who has reservations about Nelson should be tabbed as "anti-Nelson" or that they care more about Heaps than they do the team. I don't see the benefit in being so polarizing - unless some folks are more concerned about being proven right than they are about talking through what we think we see.



If that is truly your stance, then you can appreciate it when others would like to see a pattern of being able to do things before they start to anoint someone as the train to the bowl game.



Finally, there is nothing wrong with stating that Nelson struggles throwing the ball. We all know it. We have all seen it. The coaches know it.



That does not mean that I am saying that Nelson can't play and succeed or that Heaps is the only option we have...I am just not going to say that Nelson is just like Steve Young, Detmer, Doman, or even Feterik when there is very little to support that conclusion.

pjmuli wrote:
If that is truly your stance, then you can appreciate it when others would like to see a pattern of being able to do things before they start to anoint someone as the train to the bowl game.



Finally, there is nothing wrong with stating that Nelson struggles throwing the ball. We all know it. We have all seen it. The coaches know it.



That does not mean that I am saying that Nelson can't play and succeed or that Heaps is the only option we have...I am just not going to say that Nelson is just like Steve Young, Detmer, Doman, or even Feterik when there is very little to support that conclusion.

I agree with your post here, this is exactly what I've been talking about with Heaps since he has struggled this season. The anointing of Jake Heaps happened way too early last year (partly by me, and by everyone else). But as he came out this year and has struggled to even reach mediocrity - which he was only able to hit in one game, it was clear that it was time to make a change.



Nelson struggled to throw the ball last year with an injured shoulder. I do not dispute that. But I have seen every open practice and scrimmage and watched him make every throw necessary to run the BYU offense. Yes his longer passes aren't nearly as pretty as Heaps, but they have reminded me of another scrappy kid I watched 13 years ago who went on to ride wounded duck passes to the Heisman. Now, Nelson isn't that good, but he's not as bad as everyone on the internet is convinced he is.



How can we know how good he is when we haven't seen him play a single game healthy?



In the end, I don't care who is the quarterback, as long as they play as hard as they can and preferably win.

pjmuli wrote:

SpiffCoug wrote:
If you can't eat crow about Nelson, than you are more a fan of a player than the team.

+100.

What is up with this accusatory language? One thing I will say about the two of you is that your rhetoric is very polarizing.



There is a decent chance that Heaps starts next week. What will the two of you do then? Continue to slander to coaches and players?



Oh, but wait, that would imply being more of a fan of a player than a team.

There is a very slim chance Heaps starts next week. What will I do then if he starts? 1) Question the wisdom of playing a kid who isn't meeting the standards for a sixth straight game. And 2) Expect him to meet the standard of a 136 PER. 3) I'll cheer for him to succeed and recognize when he doesn't.



I have yet to slander anyone. All of my "attacks" on players have been results oriented based on them failing to reach the standard. You can fail without being a failure.

scott715 wrote:
I keep thinking about the FSU game last year. They shut down the QB draw and the offense. The OC will need to add something else to the Riley offense to make it work.

News Flash



FSU, most SEC teams or Big 12 teams and at least half of the BCS teams are better than we are. At least. FSU ate Max Hall and BYU in Provo and ate An injured Nelson and Heaps in Florida. There are some teams that are better than us. You can't win them all. But when you lose to Utah two years in a row and are about to lose to USU for the 2nd time in a row - that is unacceptable. That would set this program back 10 years. Jake Heaps has never beaten either of those teams.



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Cougarbib2 wrote:

I keep thinking about the FSU game last year. They shut down the QB draw and the offense. The OC will need to add something else to the Riley offense to make it work.

News Flash



FSU, most SEC teams or Big 12 teams and at least half of the BCS teams are better than we are. At least. FSU ate Max Hall and BYU in Provo and ate An injured Nelson and Heaps in Florida. There are some teams that are better than us. You can't win them all. But when you lose to Utah two years in a row and are about to lose to USU for the 2nd time in a row - that is unacceptable. That would set this program back 10 years. Jake Heaps has never beaten either of those teams.



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I'd love to know many snaps Nelson took in that FSU game.