Be Careful What We Wish For

I absolutely agree with the decision to put Nelson in the game and I absolutely believe he is the single reason why we won the game. However, I do not believe we should turn the offense over to him unless he proves that he can run our offense including throwing all of the passes. The entire game winning drive was not BYU's offense. It was Nelson running the ball, extending plays with scrambling, heaving a prayer that was answered, and getting a lucky tip. We will not win against good teams if we try to play like that.



I love Nelson's heart and determination. I see a little of Doman in him. The question is can he actually run an offense that a defense has to respect for the entire game? Take away the ugly pass he heaved down the middle of the field and there is no way we had time to go the length of the field with five yard passes and Nelson running up the middle. When is the last time you have seen a defense line up with eight men in the box and the corners playing bump on the receivers during a two-minute drill? Utah State did not respect his ability to pass the ball down field. They got burned, but as a coach I would have done the exact same thing.



Look at the Air Force game last year. Nelson was unstoppable for the first quarter. However, once they took away his scrambling our offense sputtered. If the defense can load the box with eight and play man on our receivers we're screwed. As of now, I see Nelson for what he is, a change of pace quarterback. If your starter is struggling you bring in the reliever and see if the team sparks. If a defense prepares for Nelson all week I think we won't see the same results as tonight.



Let's be honest, we are going to win SJSU, Idaho, Idaho State, and New Mexico State regardless of who the quarterback is. We could throw Munns in as the starter with no practice and we are going to win those games. The question is can Nelson be effective against a TCU defense that prepared to face him all week? As of now I don't think so. If he is named the starter I hope he proves me wrong. I hope if we give him starter snaps that we develop him into a passing quarterback. I just wonder if we are wasting time trying to turn him into something he is not and we will pay the price every time we play a good team this year and next...

Question: do we have a single quarterback that can be effective against a TCU defense that prepares to face him all week?



Answer: I don't think so.



Heaps had his chance to build his body of work. He came up short. Now it's Riley's turn.



I have more faith in Riley's miracle catches than I do in anything Heaps is throwing.

We know Jake Heaps cannot run the BYU offense right now. Next year? Maybe. Nelson has earned the start for next game.

It would be a huge windfall if Nelson clicks and can have a senior year like Doman did. That would enable us to redshirt Heaps and have Lark back him up. I think Heaps really needs some time on the sidelines to figure this out. Can we pull a McMahon and slap the redshirt on Heaps after his sophmore year so that Nelson can finish out his eligibility and then possibly have two great years with Heaps?

I agree 100%. we did not see BYU offense on the last drive. We saw a passionate player against an unprepared defense. That won't last very long.



However. compare that to what heaps has been able to do...really not sure which of the two will get more than 1 TD in a game. At least Nelson can scramble. and if his energy gets WR to actually CATCH the freakin ball, then maybe that's enough.

Wickchad84087 wrote:
It would be a huge windfall if Nelson clicks and can have a senior year like Doman did. That would enable us to redshirt Heaps and have Lark back him up. I think Heaps really needs some time on the sidelines to figure this out. Can we pull a McMahon and slap the redshirt on Heaps after his sophmore year so that Nelson can finish out his eligibility and then possibly have two great years with Heaps?

Agree. Would love to see Nelson play out these next two years and heaps RS next year, but only if Riley can actually get the job done. Wonder though if heaps ego and pschye can handle a benching and rs. Hope so. Then we can get back to having qb apprentice for two years and come in as jr or red shirt soph when they are actually ready.



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Y 4 Ever wrote:

It would be a huge windfall if Nelson clicks and can have a senior year like Doman did. That would enable us to redshirt Heaps and have Lark back him up. I think Heaps really needs some time on the sidelines to figure this out. Can we pull a McMahon and slap the redshirt on Heaps after his sophmore year so that Nelson can finish out his eligibility and then possibly have two great years with Heaps?

Agree. Would love to see Nelson play out these next two years and heaps RS next year, but only if Riley can actually get the job done. Wonder though if heaps ego and pschye can handle a benching and rs. Hope so. Then we can get back to having qb apprentice for two years and come in as jr or red shirt soph when they are actually ready.



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If his psyche can't take benching and RS then he doesn't have the mental toughness to ever play another snap at BYU.

CougarClaw wrote:
I agree 100%. we did not see BYU offense on the last drive. We saw a passionate player against an unprepared defense. That won't last very long.



However. compare that to what heaps has been able to do...really not sure which of the two will get more than 1 TD in a game. At least Nelson can scramble. and if his energy gets WR to actually CATCH the freakin ball, then maybe that's enough.

This is what you saw. The guy who can't make all the throws, isn't a BYU QB, has no upside, is only a situational QB, and has never been given any respect by Jake Heaps apologists, came into the game needing 2 scores, overcame adversity even though he has not had many snaps in practice, after already bailing out a Heaps drive in the first half, overcame a drop by Kariya, a fumble by JJ, a missed field goal, a punt Falslev let roll 30 yards to the 4, and made plays instead of excuses as the very same leaky boats rose up - get out of denial about what you saw and RISE UP. Nelson did not save the game. Riley Nelson saved the program from humiliation - 2 years of losing to the Utes and the Aggies under Jake Heaps and two different OCs. Unheard of.



And yes - Riley Nelson will lose to TCU - unless he doesn't.



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If Heaps can't handle a benching and RS then he's not cut out to be a BYU QB anyways.

Wickchad84087 wrote:
The question is can Nelson be effective against a TCU defense that prepared to face him all week? As of now I don't think so.

I'm sorry, but this is one of the weakest arguments I have seen in the history of this board. Do you think Heaps could be effective against TCU? Because he wasn't even effective against USU....or UCF......or Ole Miss.

If BYU had stuck with Heaps we would have lost the game, and lost it big. The season would have been over, completely wasted. But BYU made the change and the team united behind their leader. Nelson may not be the best QB in the nation, but he saved BYU's season to fight another game.

BYU hasn't had an effective QB against TCU in half a decade.

CougarClaw wrote:
I agree 100%. we did not see BYU offense on the last drive.

We haven't see BYU offense all year. For real. I'll take an ugly drive to win over timid and errant passes from a rocket arm any day.



Why can't Heaps take that amazing arm and just figure out where to put the ball?!?! Ugh. It's too bad.

Cougy_Monster wrote:

I agree 100%. we did not see BYU offense on the last drive.

We haven't see BYU offense all year. For real. I'll take an ugly drive to win over timid and errant passes from a rocket arm any day.



Why can't Heaps take that amazing arm and just figure out where to put the ball?!?! Ugh. It's too bad.

Great post, Cougy_Monster. What are people wanting? Riley Nelson to go out, throw a pass 10 yards over the head of a wide open receiver, then lead another receiver directly into a huge hit? Then a 3rd and long pass that goes into the dirt?



I've been a BYU fan since the early 80s and the BYU offense is getting the football down field, passing, running, qb drawing, whatever it takes. Unless Steve Young and Brandon Doman don't count as BYU offensive players either.

I can't stand the "he can't make the throws to run the "BYU" offense" argument. What exactly is this "BYU offense" and why can't Nelson run it?



BYU offenses score TDs. That's what Riley did last night. I'll take whoever's getting the ball into the endzone.

hawkwing wrote:

CougarClaw wrote:
I agree 100%. we did not see BYU offense on the last drive.

We haven't see BYU offense all year. For real. I'll take an ugly drive to win over timid and errant passes from a rocket arm any day.



Why can't Heaps take that amazing arm and just figure out where to put the ball?!?! Ugh. It's too bad.

Great post, Cougy_Monster. What are people wanting? Riley Nelson to go out, throw a pass 10 yards over the head of a wide open receiver, then lead another receiver directly into a huge hit? Then a 3rd and long pass that goes into the dirt?



I've been a BYU fan since the early 80s and the BYU offense is getting the football down field, passing, running, qb drawing, whatever it takes. Unless Steve Young and Brandon Doman don't count as BYU offensive players either.

I am guessing that most of us agree on a few points:



(1) The best case scenario is for Heaps to play to his upside. This would be better for BYU than Nelson, Lark, or Munns playing to their upside.

(2) Inasmuch as Heaps is not playing to his upside, it is good, desirable, and useful to give Nelson opportunity.

(3) Nelson has earned further opportunity.



Where we probably do not agree:



(1) The degree to which we feel Heaps' struggle are his fault and he deserves a verbal lashing.

(2) What we feel we can legitimately expect from Nelson when a defense prepares for him.

(3) Our assessment of Nelson's throwing ability.



Frankly, what I don't understand his how anyone who has watched Nelson thinks he CAN throw the ball consistently. Of all the bad passes last night, Nelson's throw to JJ when he was wide open five yards away was the worst (not the touchdown tip pass...but that was bad too). We have a lot of exposure to Nelson when he played last year. The argument that he can throw consistently flies in the face of that evidence and even what the coaches acknowledge.



Of course, the response will be "Heaps has been overthrowing...misleading...etc." Yes, we know that...see point 2 as to where we agree.



I guess all I am hoping is that we keep this in context. Nelson inspired and lead to victory. That has a real value. Probably his finest moment as a college athlete. There are some of us (myself included) that think it won't get any better than last night with Nelson.



Those who have concerns about his ability to throw are justified because there has never been a time when he has thrown it consistently well. He may be our best option because of grit, improvisation, and leadership.

I have never seen a QB at BYU get as many opportunities to be successful as has Heaps. He has received major consideration and preference from day one. It makes you wonder what a quarterback like Lark or Munns would have grown into with the same amount of opportunity. Jake has a full season of starts behind him now and still cannot get the job done. I don't know if Nelson is the answer but it appears that for the present time Heaps is not it either.

Would love to see Lark get some game reps. He has a strong arm. Maybe not the arm Heaps has but better than Riley. He can scramble. Maybe not as well as Riley but better than Heaps. He may be just what we need. Like I said given the same amount of preference and opportunity he might develop into a positive asset for the team.

Eff potential. I've seen a season and a half of what potential gets you when you put it on the field. Ziggy Ansah has HUGE potential, but they aren't giving him preferential treatment and starting him because of his potential. Give me results in games and save your potential for practice where it belongs.



As long as the argument for Heaps is "he has tremendous upside," Heaps needs to be on the sideline. Once that argument changes to "Heaps gives us the best chance to win," then put him back out between the chalk.

Riley has 100% earned the right to take over the starting job. When we were sitting on the 4 yard line I kept saying to myself that Riley was not the guy you wanted under center with just over 2 minutes left in the game and 96 yards to go and I was dead wrong. The guy is a gamer and proved it. Yes, it wasn't pretty but it was effective. I admit I was duped by Jake's potential 100%. I was fooled into believing that we had no other option then him because of the unbelievable play that we got from him after the bye week last year. I was wrong.



After the Washington game last year, I came on this board and stated that Riley Nelson deserved to be the guy who BYU gave the ball as the starting qb because when he is on the field the offense moves the ball the best. I was flamed for that opinion. Looks like I was right then too.



Our offensive play calling is still horribly predictable but Riley hides that with his grit, determination, and his legs. Plus he has a different energy when he is on the field. You could see the entire offensive energy go up a level the second he got out there. When Heaps is out there, he is slow and methodical, it is almost like the entire offense goes to sleep. Riley runs around, gets the offense lined up and just keeps things moving. He should be our guy. I will never be fooled by potential again.

***WARNING*** I am about to question Nelson as the starter. Be advised that this does not mean I think Heaps should start or even see another snap this year. Heaps needs to sit until the GAME (not practice) slows down for him. Sit him this year, redshirt him next year and let him compete for the job in 2013.



Now about Nelson. I have always loved having him on the team, and I really like what he has been doing on special teams and 4th downs. I loved his come back last night, but....



I don't think that can work for an entire 60 minutes. I think he is like a really good 6th man in basketball. He comes off the bench and sparks the team, but he isn't someone you leave in all game.



He had some bad throws last night and his throw against UCF. He had a running start on the throw to Jacobson and it went 40 yards right down the middle of the field. I don't know that he could throw further than 30 yards down the sideline.



I would still like to see Lark get more reps in practice and maybe even see him start and then bring in Riley to change things up.



Heaps skill set is limited enough that teams can successfully defend him. I think if teams have a week to prepare for Nelson as a starter then they could defend him as well. I'm not saying that Lark is undefendable, but maybe it takes 2 QBs combined to have a skill set that teams can't prepare to defend. I don't want alternating drives, but I want the threat that either Lark or Nelson could play.



I also don't know that we need to split practice reps any more than we already do. Nelson's best plays are when the play breaks down anyway, so how much practice does that take. I say give Heaps' reps to Lark and see what James can do, force defenses to prepare for two styles, but primarily play one or the other, with the off QB being the change of pace.