Honor Code office, ie HOA

[BoiseBYU]

I think for most of us (perhaps), we support the honor code and we support consequences for instances in which the code is violated. Where there is dissonance, as I see it, is in the how, when or what consequences to mete out in any given situation. Some violations--serious violence against another for example--demand serious immediate consequence. Some perhaps don't. I've wondered if some things couldn't be carved out or better delineated--wouldn't processes of repentance and improvement be better effectuated for example if in matters of sexual morality we leave those things to a Bishop, at least in the first instance, who handles without needing to tell BYU of the confession? Obviously the unrepentant needs to be addressed differently. I know I am writing fairly ignorant of current matters and don't want to overreact based on some anecdote. But if a student needs to repent yet fears doing so will jeopardize his or her standing at BYU, well, haven't we created a bad incentive? Isn't that the problem BYU addressed in dealing with someone who reports sexual assault but the circumstances suggested other honor code violations and BYU saying such facts wouldn't be held against the person reporting the assault? These are hard issues and my perception is BYU is in good faith addressing and taking them on. Forgive my ramblings

[Jarhead]

I like the theme of what you are saying BoiseBYU. I’ll type up some thoughts below, but they are written without a lot of additional thought, and I’d be open to other ideas.

If people are willing and wanting to change, they should be able to openly talk with the honor code office without fear. That means that the penalty for first time or possibly even second time honor code violations should be some sort of probation and not suspension. The honor code office and ecclesiastical leaders should have no connections whatsoever (except for the ecclesiastical endorsement. And an ecclesiastical endorsement should be able to be given for anyone who is actively working through issues with their ecclesiastical leader).

Those who are a clear and present danger to other students (violence / attacker, etc) would need to be handled in a different manner.

Only those who demonstrate that they just don’t care to try and follow the rules at BYU should be expelled.

[Gunk]

Moroni 6: 7 - 8

[CrimsonCoug]

I'm grateful for the opinions expressed on this board.

I never ran afoul of the honor code office. I ran afoul of the BYU police dozens of times through parking tickets.
I'm sure I spent more time in the BYU police office than I did in professors' offices.
But I never spent a moment in the honor code office. Does that mean it had no effect on me? Of course not. It affected me in two ways: by Authority and by Association.

By Authority I mean that I knew they had the authority to affect my education. That threat was sometimes helpful as it represented a near-term externalized incentive to do the right thing. Sure, the spiritual aspects should have been sufficient, but young people have uneven levels of development and the honor code is a useful boundary fence until students are fully functioning adults (and I mean that in the biological sense not the legal sense: the pre-frontal cortex that governs risk and anticipating consequences isn't fully developed until around 25).

By Association I mean that it provides a common set of norms of expected behavior to which all individuals in the group voluntarily pledge. Part of the appeal of BYU is and should remain the expectation that it provides an opportunity for association for people who are committed to living healthy, chaste lives to be with others who do the same. In other words, it curbs negative externalities of someone's behavior onto another person's enjoyment. For example, my wife strongly dislikes hearing foul language. She appreciated being part of an association where there was a norm against it. Similar arguments can be made for the effect of a roommate bringing porn, booze, or a partner into a shared living space. I grew up in Las Vegas; I saw a lot of stuff and am pretty tolerant with all of it, but I don't prefer it. I appreciated having an option in the educational marketplace that had an environment with significantly lower levels of those things. I loved BYU in large part BECAUSE of the environment its honor code created; it was a breath of fresh air, an awakening of what was possible.

So aside from the moral arguments, I think there are some sound arguments around personal liberties and association in favor of a school where I can voluntarily pledge to not do things I wasn't intending to do any way in order to be part of a group that has expectations of behavior similar to mine and has teeth where necessary to maintain those expectations.

[CrimsonCoug]

Looks like the Honor Code Office is moving in the right direction with consultation and transparency.
https://news.byu.edu/news/update-honor- ... provements

[byufan4ever]

Looks like the Honor Code Office is moving in the right direction with consultation and transparency.
https://news.byu.edu/news/update-honor- ... provements

I like the words. Hopefully they back it up with their actions.

[redneckjedi]

I'm grateful for the opinions expressed on this board.

I never ran afoul of the honor code office. I ran afoul of the BYU police dozens of times through parking tickets.
I'm sure I spent more time in the BYU police office than I did in professors' offices.
But I never spent a moment in the honor code office. Does that mean it had no effect on me? Of course not. It affected me in two ways: by Authority and by Association.

By Authority I mean that I knew they had the authority to affect my education. That threat was sometimes helpful as it represented a near-term externalized incentive to do the right thing. Sure, the spiritual aspects should have been sufficient, but young people have uneven levels of development and the honor code is a useful boundary fence until students are fully functioning adults (and I mean that in the biological sense not the legal sense: the pre-frontal cortex that governs risk and anticipating consequences isn't fully developed until around 25).

By Association I mean that it provides a common set of norms of expected behavior to which all individuals in the group voluntarily pledge. Part of the appeal of BYU is and should remain the expectation that it provides an opportunity for association for people who are committed to living healthy, chaste lives to be with others who do the same. In other words, it curbs negative externalities of someone's behavior onto another person's enjoyment. For example, my wife strongly dislikes hearing foul language. She appreciated being part of an association where there was a norm against it. Similar arguments can be made for the effect of a roommate bringing porn, booze, or a partner into a shared living space. I grew up in Las Vegas; I saw a lot of stuff and am pretty tolerant with all of it, but I don't prefer it. I appreciated having an option in the educational marketplace that had an environment with significantly lower levels of those things. I loved BYU in large part BECAUSE of the environment its honor code created; it was a breath of fresh air, an awakening of what was possible.

So aside from the moral arguments, I think there are some sound arguments around personal liberties and association in favor of a school where I can voluntarily pledge to not do things I wasn't intending to do any way in order to be part of a group that has expectations of behavior similar to mine and has teeth where necessary to maintain those expectations.

Thanks for sharing this. I was going to say something similar, but this is much better than I would have. This is exactly why I chose BYU over the other places I could have (and, as many wrongly told me, should have) chosen for my education. I wanted to get an education, and I didn't want to have to deal with the crap I would inevitably have to deal with at another university.

Eventually, I had a need for the Honor Code office. I wound up with a roommate who didn't care for the Honor Code, or any rules in general. He was also bipolar, would stop his medication when he was feeling good and then spiral out of control, and was about twice my weight in pure muscle. Trying to finish up my senior computer science coursework while he and his groupies were obnoxiously loud after curfew in the apartment was a problem, but I dealt with that myself. Having to intervene between him and a girl at her request to prevent some kind of violence against her led to a physical altercation between me and him, which I lost, but the girl got away and I handled the rest myself, too. Eventually, he ended up threatening my life, and at that point I got campus police and the Honor Code office involved, and things calmed down nicely in time for me to finish my projects and ace my finals despite flying out to job interviews all over the country.

But those are the kind of distractions having the Honor Code is designed to prevent. The fact that it's there gives me the ability to say, "Get your groupies out of the apartment, it's past curfew and I've got work to do," or "Get away from her, what you're about to do is wrong and you know it's wrong." Now, if it's all on-my-honor, I can preach all I want, but if he's willing to lie when getting an ecclesiastical endorsement, what can I do? He's too big for me to force him to do anything, and too crazy for me to be able to reason with him. About my only chance is to goad him into doing something criminal, while hoping there is no permanent damage to me, my possessions, or my grades. And maybe in the end that's what happened, with the death threat and everything, but the point is, without the Honor Code having some teeth, situations like this are going to be less manageable and more frequent. The environment many wanted in coming to BYU will be destroyed, because they have no recourse to preserve or restore it.

[Gunk]

Looks like the Honor Code Office is moving in the right direction with consultation and transparency.
https://news.byu.edu/news/update-honor- ... provements

I like the words. Hopefully they back it up with their actions.

I like the person knowing who has reported them. That will curb some of the tattle telling. Again, I revert back to the book of Moroni. Accusations of "sin" had to have three witnesses. Three! Not the case with the HCO. One roommate with an axe to grind, a student with a prejudice, etc. can ruin a person's life.

[hawkwing]

[Jarhead]

I can see reasons for and against revealing the identity of an accuser. I think the change they made there is good, but I can see why they handled it differently before.

However, the other changes blow me away. How is it possible that they weren’t already doing that?

No wonder there are people who have an ax to grind with the office, if they wouldn’t even give you the dignity of knowing the reason of why they called you in, etc.

It’s awful they didn’t do that before; I’m glad they are doing it now.

Disclaimer: I loved having the honor code while going to BYU and I continue to support it strongly. I also think improvements are due.