Honor Code office, ie HOA

[CrimsonCoug]

However, the other changes blow me away. How is it possible that they weren’t already doing that?

That was my reaction as well. How could they not tell you why you were there? How could they not tell you what the process would be, and give you resources to help you?

Without that, it sounds very much like a kangaroo court. The HC office should certainly provide for the rights of the accused, including resources analogous to a writ of habeus corpus and offering representation--and consultation on how to navigate the process and the underlying problems that may have brought you to this point.

Frankly, a lot of this looked very McCarthy-esque. And no wonder, given that the HC and apparently the HC office is largely unchanged from the Earnest L Wilkinson administration--an effective but didactic and brutal era.

I'm glad--relieved, actually!--that the HCO is going through some serious introspection.

[CrimsonCoug]

And I'm also thrilled to hear that the BYU-PD has been decertified.
I just hope the cure isn't worse than the disease.

[snoscythe]

I had two interactions with the HCO during my time at BYU.

1) Beard Card. I got a "prescription" from a dermatologist advising me to not shave. I took it to the Honor Code Office, and they gave me a letter to show the Testing Center and my professors stating that I was not required to shave for 30 days from the date of the letter. During those 30 days I was to not shave and not trim my beard--just let it grow. At the end of the 30 days, I would go back to the Honor Code Office to have a new photo taken for my student ID with the untrimmed, untamed beard. The new ID with the bearded photo would thereafter be my beard card, and I would have to trim and maintain my beard so it looked like the untrimmed beard in the ID photo. I found that ridiculous, so I arranged with my dermatologist to pick up a new "prescription" every 30 days, which I would take to the Honor Code Office for a new 30 day letter, so I finished my time at BYU with a short, nicely trimmed beard under a series of HCO letters instead of a beard card.

2) The Unknown Violation. I got a letter summoning me to the Honor Code Office to discuss an "infraction". I kept the appointment that I had no discretion in setting, and met with an Honor Code "counselor" who after routine pleasantries went straight to "you know why you are here, right?" No, I didn't. He pressed that line a bit trying to get me to tell him why I was there. I refused to tell him why I was there, and after a few minutes of low-intensity attempts to guilt me into a confession, he backed off and explained. I had a roommate who was a former but not current BYU student. We were in off-campus BYU-approved housing that would thereafter become infamous for being the locus of events that culminated in the hiring of Bronco Mendenhall. I knew the roommate and his girlfriend were violating curfew and opposite-sex in the sleeping areas rules and was almost certain that other non-HC-approved activities were going on behind closed doors. However, it wasn't bothering me as they kept things to themselves. Someone had reported curfew violations to the apartment managers, who had reported it on to the Honor Code Office. I didn't ever find out who reported him, but I knew it came through the property manager. So, as a BYU-student roommate, they wanted to talk to me about the actions of a non-BYU student roommate. I told them I didn't know anything about it, and left. End of story. The only weird thing there was that this was essentially a housing issue--a roommate who was not subject to the Honor Code, but violating housing standards--which was routed to the Honor Code office where the discussion began with an attempt to get me to confess to anything that may have been pricking my conscience. Should have been handled by the apartment manager, not the Honor Code Office, and the guilt-trip was a bit juvenile but transparent --- glad to see that is going away.

[Fido]

Right. The apartment manager allows non-BYU students into their BYU-Approved housing if they agree to abide by the BYU rules. If they don't, the property manager should terminate the contract of the non-BYU student so they stay in good standing with the honor code office as "approved" housing. That shouldn't have gone to the HCO unless they suspected you of violating rules--which they should be upfront about.

[jvquarterback]

However, the other changes blow me away. How is it possible that they weren’t already doing that?

That was my reaction as well. How could they not tell you why you were there? How could they not tell you what the process would be, and give you resources to help you?

Without that, it sounds very much like a kangaroo court. The HC office should certainly provide for the rights of the accused, including resources analogous to a writ of habeus corpus and offering representation--and consultation on how to navigate the process and the underlying problems that may have brought you to this point.

Frankly, a lot of this looked very McCarthy-esque. And no wonder, given that the HC and apparently the HC office is largely unchanged from the Earnest L Wilkinson administration--an effective but didactic and brutal era.

I'm glad--relieved, actually!--that the HCO is going through some serious introspection.

That's the way police officers/attorneys/congressional committees/etc. work in an adversarial system. It's devolved to the point where everyone is just trying to trip the other side up and take advantage of them for a mispoken word. I don't think the Lord operates that way.

[Gunk]

My preteen daughter is a big BYU fan. I just told her all the rules for attending BYU, her response: that's dumb. She especially didn't understand the no-beard rule.

"But, lots of people have beards. What's wrong with a beard."

I told her nothing is wrong with a beard. BYU just doesn't like them.

[CrimsonCoug]

I had two interactions with the HCO during my time at BYU.

1) Beard Card....

2) The Unknown Violation. ...Should have been handled by the apartment manager, not the Honor Code Office, and the guilt-trip was a bit juvenile but transparent --- glad to see that is going away.

Thanks for sharing, Sno.

That is so lame. SOOO lame. Both of them.

I still believe the HC and HCO have a role to play, but that is not it.

I'm hopeful that the university will get it right.

On beard cards specifically, I had a friend who had micrognathia (a very small chin), and he was self-conscious of it. But he couldn't get a beard card because it wasn't a skin condition. After graduation, he grew a nice beard and looked great, successfully dated and has a wonderful family. He's a good man and a good soul, but I believe that experience nudged him on an overly critical path of institutional faith.

I'd still argue that there should be some criteria around what a beard looks like, even if it uses subjective language like a beard needing to be "comely"
For example, while in grad school I grew out a nasty goatee. I fully acknowledge that that thing had no business on my face and should have no place at BYU in trying to maintain standards of professional appearance.

I'm curious, Sno, whether your HC run-ins played any role in your decision to pursue law school. I admire the way you stonewalled their inquisition.

[MrH51]

I don’t wear a beard but wonder why BYU HC rules are more restrictive than temple attendance

[SpiffCoug]

I don’t wear a beard but wonder why BYU HC rules are more restrictive than temple attendance

Because 50 years ago, President Wilkinson was scared the hippie culture would invade and infest Provo. So he wanted to keep anything, even tangentially related, to that culture as far from BYU students as possible.

[snoscythe]

I'm curious, Sno, whether your HC run-ins played any role in your decision to pursue law school. I admire the way you stonewalled their inquisition.

Nope. I actually never really wanted to be an attorney. My employer spent a year-and-a-half convincing me to go to law school and come back to work, and eventually I gave in. Still not sure if I made the right choice or not, but hey, I'm here now.