TH...What is the VISION for BYU Football?

[dsmith1212]

+1

[dsmith1212]

The HC and BYU's infatuation with it is akin to the Saducees and Pharisees and their love affair with the law of Moses...

Wow. Just Wow. Time for a quick Sunday school lesson here. This kind of tripe needs to NOT be promulgated!

#1 - The Honor code is just that. On your Honor. It is truly grand to see such a thing given a place in ANY modern day institution. Think VERY CAREFULLY before you deride that.

#2 - if you think for one second that the Pharisees and Sadducees of Jesus' time were behaving hypocritically merely because they had a slavish confusion over the law of Moses, then you haven't been studying your scriptures closely enough. Jesus wasn't put to death because some prissy little spiritual bean counters got offended, he was put to death because a cynical criminal element of the blackest sort had come to spiritual and political power in Jerusalem during that time. These are the people that executed John the Baptist, an outsider-nobody, simply because the wife of a top bureaucrat got offended by something he said (something which was simple and true and everybody knew it by the way). And despite their supposed devotion to the law, these so called spiritual leaders of the time looked the other way for political expediency. That's cold-blooded murder at an institutional level.

To compare BYU's administration and Board of Directors to such people is patently offensive to me. I don't think anyone who posts such a sentiment has thought it through very well to say such a thing. Anyone who feels to argue against the Honor code and still remain a fan of BYU should consider modifying your tone as you make your arguments because that notion right there is just plain sick.

But let me assume your argument has merit outside of the misguided slur you've hurled at those implementing the HC right now.

Let me ask you this: how exactly is the Honor code stifling recruiting at BYU? Because it keeps student athletes who are promiscuous and pot-smoking from coming to the school? Why exactly is this a problem? Are the best players out there exclusively those who smoke pot or sleep around? For all its limitations BYU fielded a team essentially equivalent to the winners of the PAC-12 Southern Conference. Was it the Honor Code that kept them from being any better?

This is a silly soapbox. If the Honor Code keeps a repeat of the Gary Crowton era scandal from happening on campus ever again, then it is worth every misunderstanding it might cause along the way!

I am willing to admit that most football players don't grow up thinking they need to wait until marriage to have sex, and perhaps legitimate non-LDS standards could be articulated for non-LDS players who profess a faith that somehow condones girlfriend-boyfriend committed relationships that include sex before marriage. But how hard is it to fold an interpretation of that into the current HC. I'll bet many of you would be surprised if you were to find out that it already is (I suspect this is true but have no knowledge of this)?

Meanwhile in this world of #MeToo (ignoring the hypocrisy of those who would use it for political aims) NO football player ANYWHERE should think it is simply fun, safe or in any way acceptable behavior, to engage in parties where young women are going to be drunk enough to hook up for a night. That has career-ending danger written all over it nowadays. The Honor Code is a useful protection for any athlete. Do you really want to fight that?

+1

[a1247]

The vision is to give BYU a chance to compete for the national championship while being deliberately kept out of the P5. For all of you doubters and grousers with understandable frustration out there, here's a news flash: 2018 shows the vision is working and on track.

For those of you who don't really get why BYU is not in a P5 conference, let me ask you, do you have a child in college? If not, it is not so obvious to you what most modern colleges have morphed into over the last two decades: indoctrination houses of the progressive ideology. They have become increasingly effective at accomplish their job of training generations of increasingly hostile leftists. You may roll your eyes and think this has nothing to do with sports, but consider this: outside of well-run endowments, successful sports programs are the most effective way to raise non-government-subsidized income to the school and since only about a dozen schools have well-run endowments, sports is the next nearest money grab.

Because tuition is subsidized by government loans and state-run school budgets are sustained by government funding, higher education is majority funded by the government and largely run by appointees of said government. All of the money that comes from their successful sports programs, pays for things the govt subsides don't have to, and meanwhile generates highly valuable advertising for a school's brand. That money and that influence plays a significant role in maintaining these machines that act ever more like union bosses supporting the political left. Above all the accomplishes the express purpose of putting and keeping the left in political power.

So while you might have thought the NCAA was all about fairness and doing the right thing until Jim Delaney came along an hogged the P5 money to the P5 teams only, the reality is that this cancerous influence in higher education runs much deeper and has for some time. There is no way in this ideological hell that BYU will ever be allowed a shot at a P5 conference. Well I suppose the country could massively convert to the gospel of Jesus Christ, but...

Consider that BYU is run by an entity that is the polar opposite of what the progressive left stands for in almost every way. Consider that BYU's education system represents the best education value on a relative basis on the planet (and that assumes NON-member tuition prices). Consider that despite being a religious institution unfairly targeted by this ideological mob, ESPN recognizes the value of its large and growing audience. All on its own BYU is a force. You think they'll ever let that force get a footing? I'm telling you what Tom Holmoe and BYU's Administration and Board of Directors know and have known for quite a while: not a chance!

So how can you level the playing field for yourself in such an environment? Independence was and continues to be the answer.

Here is how we can tell, plainly, that it is working: Rankings. Compare BYU, Boise State, and Utah State this year. It's a great comparison because BYU in the mountain west in days past looked a lot those two teams do this year. Fielding the best team they've had in ages, the Agges went 10-1 and were ranked #21 in the playoff rankings this year while a respectable two-loss Boise State was ranked #23. Far beyond the bounds of relevance, these teams have turned in good seasons against mostly mild competition for which they have been penalized.

But suppose they HAD gone undefeated. Would they have been given any serious consideration? I wish it were true that Utah State had beaten Michigan State and Boise State so that we could all see plainly the answer to that question. The answer is no. They would only be ranked somewhere around #10. The proof is UCF: the team with the nation's longest winning streak who is being treated the way BYU had been treated in year's past despite excellent performance.

Consider the different the Wisconsin game made. By week three, EVEN WITH A LOSS to CAL, BYU was ranked. Suppose BYU had, against its current schedule, managed to go undefeated. Where would it be right now? Quite clearly they would be ranked in the top 5. The evidence, of course, is Notre Dame. Notre Dame has, on its resume today Michigan, Northwestern, Pitt, and Syracuse. Four teams that were in contention to play for their respective league championships. BYU being undefeated would have victories over Utah, Washington, and Boise that would end up being strong enough to matter in the end.

Even with all of this, it may not be possible for BYU to have made the playoffs this year, simply because Notre Dame went undefeated, along with two other teams. However if BYU manages an undefeated season against its current level of scheduling, then this year shows clearly that they would have room in the conversation and that the pollsters would have likely propped them up to that level. Additionally, imagine BYU with only one loss to say, Cal. That team could still be ranked in the top 10 and be talking about an NY6 bowl game. There is no way this happens except with the scheduling we are currently getting.

Sure this was a frustrating season, but those of you who want to blame "unintelligent scheduling" and Tom Holmoe for this are barking up the wrong tree. For his part Tom Holmoe has worked wonders for the program and independence is by far the best way to have accomplished it given the environment we are in.

Now if for some reason the light breaks through the clouds and BYU is offered a chance to be part of a P5 conference and that conference would work to assure that BYU would never have to play on Sunday (really fat chance on the last one). Then great! let's do it! Once again: it will never happen.

ESPN is very left wing so why are they working with BYU?
TCU, Baylor, Notre Dame all right wing religious schools and yet some how they have been included. I don't believe this is a political grandstand left, right wing fight.

[snoscythe]

If BYU can't succeed at athletics with the Honor Code, expect athletics to fall long before the Honor Code.

The problem with the simplest fix -- making enforcement of the Honor Code part of the ecclesiastical endorsement process with your bishop, is that bishops will begin to be sued when they do not renew their endorsements. The HCO serves as an institutional foil in our overly litigious society.

[frdbtr]

If BYU can't succeed at athletics with the Honor Code, expect athletics to fall long before the Honor Code.

The problem with the simplest fix -- making enforcement of the Honor Code part of the ecclesiastical endorsement process with your bishop, is that bishops will begin to be sued when they do not renew their endorsements. The HCO serves as an institutional foil in our overly litigious society.

Just think enforcement of the honor code is ridiculous. I had multiple roommates when I was living in provo who went to BYU who were sleeping with their girlfriends, none of them got kicked out yet any football or basketball player who does it once is gone because it hits the headlines. This needs to be fixed. If the Honor code were as stricktly enforced in the 80's as it is today, we would have never had the run we had back then. To me, it is currently enforced as thinly vailed blackmail for athletes who have their entire lives invested in making it athletically because if they get kicked out of school they lose a year of eligibility and maybe their shot at a proffessional career in their sport. So the result is some atheletes who we would have landed in the 80's now don't even consider BYU because they don't want to deal with that, even if they don't see the honor code as an overall negative.

[KingCoug]

The HC and BYU's infatuation with it is akin to the Saducees and Pharisees and their love affair with the law of Moses...

Wow. Just Wow. Time for a quick Sunday school lesson here. This kind of tripe needs to NOT be promulgated!

#1 - The Honor code is just that. On your Honor. It is truly grand to see such a thing given a place in ANY modern day institution. Think VERY CAREFULLY before you deride that.

#2 - if you think for one second that the Pharisees and Sadducees of Jesus' time were behaving hypocritically merely because they had a slavish confusion over the law of Moses, then you haven't been studying your scriptures closely enough. Jesus wasn't put to death because some prissy little spiritual bean counters got offended, he was put to death because a cynical criminal element of the blackest sort had come to spiritual and political power in Jerusalem during that time. These are the people that executed John the Baptist, an outsider-nobody, simply because the wife of a top bureaucrat got offended by something he said (something which was simple and true and everybody knew it by the way). And despite their supposed devotion to the law, these so called spiritual leaders of the time looked the other way for political expediency. That's cold-blooded murder at an institutional level.

To compare BYU's administration and Board of Directors to such people is patently offensive to me. I don't think anyone who posts such a sentiment has thought it through very well to say such a thing. Anyone who feels to argue against the Honor code and still remain a fan of BYU should consider modifying your tone as you make your arguments because that notion right there is just plain sick.

But let me assume your argument has merit outside of the misguided slur you've hurled at those implementing the HC right now.

Let me ask you this: how exactly is the Honor code stifling recruiting at BYU? Because it keeps student athletes who are promiscuous and pot-smoking from coming to the school? Why exactly is this a problem? Are the best players out there exclusively those who smoke pot or sleep around? For all its limitations BYU fielded a team essentially equivalent to the winners of the PAC-12 Southern Conference. Was it the Honor Code that kept them from being any better?

This is a silly soapbox. If the Honor Code keeps a repeat of the Gary Crowton era scandal from happening on campus ever again, then it is worth every misunderstanding it might cause along the way!

I am willing to admit that most football players don't grow up thinking they need to wait until marriage to have sex, and perhaps legitimate non-LDS standards could be articulated for non-LDS players who profess a faith that somehow condones girlfriend-boyfriend committed relationships that include sex before marriage. But how hard is it to fold an interpretation of that into the current HC. I'll bet many of you would be surprised if you were to find out that it already is (I suspect this is true but have no knowledge of this)?

Meanwhile in this world of #MeToo (ignoring the hypocrisy of those who would use it for political aims) NO football player ANYWHERE should think it is simply fun, safe or in any way acceptable behavior, to engage in parties where young women are going to be drunk enough to hook up for a night. That has career-ending danger written all over it nowadays. The Honor Code is a useful protection for any athlete. Do you really want to fight that?

Agreed

They'll try to spin it one way or another but some fans would be content to see BYU become just another school, with little difference to Utah, if they thought it would result in more wins.

[Mars]

The Honor Code isn't "on your honor", it is policed. I think there are real issues with how that is done. Other schools have honor codes, but no enforcement office. And yes, the church puts a heavy emphasis on repentance, while the honor Code office puts a heavy emphasis on punishment. I think there's a lot of room for healthy change without abandoning principles.

And yes, there are principles that do need to be abandoned, namely ones of culture and not of the Gospel. Such as beards. There's no need to try to go above and beyond Temple standards.

BYU changes over time, the same as the Church, but much less quickly than the world in general. We're always in an extremely slow-to-react time warp. See: Caffeinated soda. Changing isn't bad, and neither is staying the same, depending on what is right. But not changing when the time is right can hurt. This may have played a part in our failed B12 bid. And has hurt us when it comes to supporting female sex abuse victims and providing resources to minority students (such as gays and lesbians) in Provo. Note that BYU has changed a ton on both of those issues in the past two years- The change was needed, but we were too slow to do it earlier, when we should have.

And no, I don't buy that a government run 50% by the right is pumping money into universities in order to strengthen the Left. If true, our government would defund public colleges.

Yes, I think BYU is scheduling too hard. We're trying to run when we can't even walk. Wins bring ticket sales, which is the #1 goal of any AD.

And yes, I think the AAC is more attractive than Independance at this point. If we don't get in to the Big XII by 2024, another big window of opportunity will have closed.

Yes, I think being THE MORMON SCHOOL makes it much harder to join a Power conference, but no, I don't think it's impossible.

And I honestly think Mormons should get along with the left a hell of a lot better than we do. We both hate Trump. We both support immigration. We both want to take care of the poor. We both care about the mental and physical health of our fellow men. We both believe in giving up an increased part of our own money in order to help those less fortunate than ourselves.

[BoiseBYU]

If BYU can't succeed at athletics with the Honor Code, expect athletics to fall long before the Honor Code.

The problem with the simplest fix -- making enforcement of the Honor Code part of the ecclesiastical endorsement process with your bishop, is that bishops will begin to be sued when they do not renew their endorsements. The HCO serves as an institutional foil in our overly litigious society.

I support the honor code. I have wondered though if having Bishops involved in determining admissibility to BYU is a good idea. Given there are 25,000 plus Bishops the fact of the matter is we have very disparate ways that honor code violations are handled and addressed. It also puts Bishops in the unfortunate position of being cops on the watch, something they are not really called to do. Why not eliminate the ecclesiastical endorsement requirement and let BYU be the sole handler of the honor code and determining what to do? Then Bishops could be left to minister counsel and shepherd and BYU could handle honor code issues as indicated.

[snoscythe]

TBH, if BYU were to drop the Honor Code, I would stop following them. BYU is presently unique, different, and stands for something. If they quit on that, I'll just devote my energy elsewhere, because they're just the local college at that point who happens to give discounted tuition to tithing-payers.

[KingCoug]

The Honor Code isn't "on your honor", it is policed. I think there are real issues with how that is done. Other schools have honor codes, but no enforcement office. And yes, the church puts a heavy emphasis on repentance, while the honor Code office puts a heavy emphasis on punishment. I think there's a lot of room for healthy change without abandoning principles.

And yes, there are principles that do need to be abandoned, namely ones of culture and not of the Gospel. Such as beards. There's no need to try to go above and beyond Temple standards.

BYU changes over time, the same as the Church, but much less quickly than the world in general. We're always in an extremely slow-to-react time warp. See: Caffeinated soda. Changing isn't bad, and neither is staying the same, depending on what is right. But not changing when the time is right can hurt. This may have played a part in our failed B12 bid. And has hurt us when it comes to supporting female sex abuse victims and providing resources to minority students (such as gays and lesbians) in Provo. Note that BYU has changed a ton on both of those issues in the past two years- The change was needed, but we were too slow to do it earlier, when we should have.

And no, I don't buy that a government run 50% by the right is pumping money into universities in order to strengthen the Left. If true, our government would defund public colleges.

Yes, I think BYU is scheduling too hard. We're trying to run when we can't even walk. Wins bring ticket sales, which is the #1 goal of any AD.

And yes, I think the AAC is more attractive than Independance at this point. If we don't get in to the Big XII by 2024, another big window of opportunity will have closed.

Yes, I think being THE MORMON SCHOOL makes it much harder to join a Power conference, but no, I don't think it's impossible.

And I honestly think Mormons should get along with the left a hell of a lot better than we do. We both hate Trump. We both support immigration. We both want to take care of the poor. We both care about the mental and physical health of our fellow men. We both believe in giving up an increased part of our own money in order to help those less fortunate than ourselves.

Get along with the Left? You mean those self-satisfied secularists who mock religion and worship at the alter of so-called science (unless it conflicts with their social agenda). It's leftism which, in part, kept BYU from joining the PAC 12. As well as tried to keep BYU out of the BIG 12. Leftists are the biggest antagonistics of the Church by far today.

TBH, if BYU were to drop the Honor Code, I would stop following them. BYU is presently unique, different, and stands for something. If they quit on that, I'll just devote my energy elsewhere, because they're just the local college at that point who happens to give discounted tuition to tithing-payers.

Exactly. I root for BYU because it's BYU. So many other religious schools have watered down their policies or sold out to the point that their Christian affiliations are basically in name only.