Jake is not a Prima Donna

[SpiffCoug]

In my mind, it's 1978-79 all over again, when BYU had a great QB Wilson competing with McMahon, who would ultimately become one of, if not the best, BYU QB ever. The two split time in 1978 (Wilson was a junior and McMahon a sophomore), winning the WAC and going to the Holiday Bowl. BYU decided to redshirt McMahon after that season to allow Wilson to finish his eligibilty, while still giving McMahon two more years to start.

While it may not seem like much, redshirting McMahon also allowed BYU to gain some national momentum, as BYU went 11-1 under Wilson in 1979, and 12-1 and 11-2 in 1980 and 1981 under McMahon. Imagine if McMahon had used up his eligibility in 1980--it would have forced Young into action a year early, and I'm not sure if he would have been ready. BYU's national championship in 1984 was the culmination of a 6 year period in which BYU had 5 seasons of 11 wins or more. Had 1981 been rebuilding year instead of a 11-2 bowl winning season, I don't know if BYU gains the recognition be voted as national champions in 1984.

This makes a lot of sense to me. I'd be perfectly okay with a scenario like this to play out. I think it's something worth the coaches time to consider.

[SpiffCoug]

The fact that Nelson couldn't outshine the freshman and be named starter with two years under his belt says a lot about jake heaps. The fact that they are even even suggests that jake has a lot more upside than nelson.

nelson is very talented but jake has already proven that he can at least hang in d1 the way he performed in spring ball against a d1 defense. its arguable who did better in spring ball (see the numerous debates between sno and mars) but hte fact that jake came in and moved the ball against byu's defense right off the bat suggests he is already at a very high level.

he is a quick learner as well. I expect him to clearly beat out nelson this fall and get the starting job. he will get better and better every week while nelson has already had two years to get better and better and is apparently at jakes level right now.

Agreed, the fact that Nelson didn't completely outshine him does speak well of Jake's talent. And does give cause for great enthusiasm for his future.

In all honesty, I wouldn't be surprised to see Heaps having made great strides over the summer and for there to be very little doubt as to who should start.

Heaps has shown the ability to improve. Go back and look his highlights from his sophomore, junior and senior seasons. Each year his arm got stronger, reads quicker and pocket presence better. If he shows similar improvement, he's going to be very good. I just really hope we can find a way to give him an extra year to get that improvement without the pressure of winning.

[blue42]

wow I really don't think this horse is completely dead yet!! I think we can beat a little more life out of it.

I think most everyone will agree that during spring ball there was very little separation between the two QB's as has been stated many times on this board, leaving out personal opinion.

The question I will ask is if Riley is such a crappy QB than why is everyone in the Heaps camp so willing to compare his talent against crap? I think the calculations should be as follows..... If Riley = crap and Heaps = to Riley in spring ball than Heaps = crap, if not than Heaps = a very good QB and Heaps = Riley in spring ball than Riley = a very good QB.

I think we have 4 very good and talented QB's on the team this year and I trust 1000000% the coaching staff to do what is absolutely the best for the program, if they choose Heaps than fantastic, if they choose Riley again fantastic, if they choose the moron who sits next to me at the games and was yelling last year to replace Hall than fantastic. I know the coaches know a ton more about football than I do, and I do know a lot, but I know Bronco and Co will make better decisions than I could.

[frdbtr]

wow I really don't think this horse is completely dead yet!! I think we can beat a little more life out of it.

I think most everyone will agree that during spring ball there was very little separation between the two QB's as has been stated many times on this board, leaving out personal opinion.

The question I will ask is if Riley is such a crappy QB than why is everyone in the Heaps camp so willing to compare his talent against crap? I think the calculations should be as follows..... If Riley = crap and Heaps = to Riley in spring ball than Heaps = crap, if not than Heaps = a very good QB and Heaps = Riley in spring ball than Riley = a very good QB.

I think we have 4 very good and talented QB's on the team this year and I trust 1000000% the coaching staff to do what is absolutely the best for the program, if they choose Heaps than fantastic, if they choose Riley again fantastic, if they choose the moron who sits next to me at the games and was yelling last year to replace Hall than fantastic. I know the coaches know a ton more about football than I do, and I do know a lot, but I know Bronco and Co will make better decisions than I could.

The funny thing to me is; we have 2 very highly recruited/talented guys that are being completely ignored by everyone right now in this argument. Munns and Lark are going to have something to say about who is the starter next year after all is said and done IMO.

[Brayden Green]

Kitic, great post. I appreciate seeing your side of things, and for the continued respect we both have for each other. I am sorry for escalating my posts the way I did to be so inflamatory. I responded to aggression with aggression, and that was wrong of me. Guess it wasn't my day. I will take two metaphorical chill pills and continue our discussion.

- For the record, I am a Jets fan (born under a bad sign ), and Sanchez did great taking over a new offense, with no offensive tools. As you mentioned, the jets are a blitz first, defensive team and the fact he was able to turn few games late from losses to wins is a great job for a rookie in that position. I expect the same type of performance from either byu qb this season, in that either qb will start at level A, and gain experience to put himself at level B towards the end of the season. The problem with our season, is that two of our top 4 losable games come at the beginning of the season. So we have to go with the qb that knows the offense best and can run it best at that point. Nelson is not suited to run our offense, as his tools provide a running threat, but do not provide the checkdown, timing, and arm strengh (which is accuracy for long throws). Think last year, without the deep ball are strength, and add that to the fact that our receivers including Jacobsen create little to no separation (not sure yet if that was designed, due to having Pitta and George over the middle.) I think it is a little of both. We haven't had 3 offensive styles in the last 15 years. It has basically been the same offense with a few subsets. We use more tight ends, because we don't start faster players, we start bigger and more developed players (insert argument for players going on missions and coming back monster-men here). So we almost always run a two TE offense, with a tailback and 2 wide outs. It has been very effective the last 20 years. You can argue that under Crowton we did things a little differently, and we did, but Doman and Staley were still able to play our normal sets, just had a few added plays. The issue I have is, Nelson can't play our offense as/is. When you start Nelson, you take away the deep ball, and more importantly you take away the 30-40 yard strike over the middle to our tight ends. He simply doesn't have the arm Hall does, and Hall is one of our weaker armed QB's. You add a running threat, but need to add a lot of qb boots, option plays, etc. which is a lot of work for 11 starters and 10 rotators to memorize and become familiar with. 1 practice basically = a new play sufficiently learned, and then one more practice for the 2nd and 3rd teams. My argument is that today, right now, Heaps is better at checkdown, timing, and accuracy. And that has nothing to do with the speed of the game. That translates directly, with a little pitch and catch practice. The speed of the game is knowing the defense is faster, and speeding up your mental "time's up" clock. It is no easy task for a qb, but people have done it, and everything I have seen from Jake leads me to believe he can.

True freshman do step in all the time. Just rarely at the QB position. You don't know any more than I do that Jake Heaps is indeed "that player." I think Heaps can be. But I'm willing to give him time to develop.

In a perfect world, we have that time, but I don't think we do. There is a big difference between - losing and not losing - a couple games, as far as recruiting goes. We don't get the highly touted Non LDS guy having an 8-4 season. We get him by having 5 consecutive 10+ win seasons. To lose now, even though it is rebuilding, is taking away from everything that we've done before now. For example, if in it's last "qualifying" year of evaluation for the BCS the MWC goes out and lays a goose egg, everything we have done up to now means nothing. You know who knows this better than you or I? Bronco and the staff.

This has been my contention for a long time. To me "success" is winning 9 games this year. I don't think we're winning any more games with either QB. I don't think Jake Heaps in 2010 is the difference between 11 wins and seven. I think BYU's record will be what it will be regardless of who starts at QB.
THAT is why I want to be patient with Heaps. I don't think we win any more games with him in 2010. But maybe we do in 2011 or 2012 or 2013 or 2014. I haven't seen the reason we need to RUSH his college career. College football is chock full of examples of uber-talented QBs redshirting and being highly, extremely successful.

This is probably the main part where we differ. I think Jake as an athlete, decision maker, and most importantly to me, a byu qb that we don't need to change the offense for (allowing us to spend precious practices doing other stuff), wins us that extra game or two. But let's pretend that it doesn't. Let's pretend that starting Riley gives you 8 and Jake gives you 8. Even Steven. Then, to me, you start the better quarterback who has the most potential, PROVIDED that he can handle the pressure. If Heaps doesn't cost you any wins, then you give him that gametime experience, and let him pull from that the next 3 years after. Riley is as good as almost as good as he is going to get. He has had ample time to prove himself a starter, and never has. He didn't beat Gaskins last year for the job, and won't beat Jake for 2, if he even beats him for one. Again, sitting out for an entire year learning campus life and the offense, won't do for you what 2 or 3 games experience will do. So if Jake and Nelson give us the same amount of wins (again, I don't think they do) then we start Jake, IF HE CAN HANDLE IT, so that the next few years he can use that experience. Now if we RS Jake, and give him time to learn the offense and do this next year, of course that is the best scenario for him. But for cougar football? There is a huge difference in recruiting a 7-8 win season, versus a 9,10,11 win season. Our recruiting classes the last 3 years have shown that. I would like to continue recruiting at a crazy clip, Jake gives us a chance to do that.

I'm not wanting Nelson to be the QB because of tradition. I want him to be the QB because I don't think we win any more games with Heaps. Playing Nelson allows Heaps the time to learn and improve without the pressure of winning, and winning now.

I am right there with you, I want nothing more than for Nelson to be the qb we need, and RS Jake. I hope it happens, but I am extremely doubtful it will. That sun has set.

He doesn't need to improve in all those areas. He is a good fit for the offense we have - or can be, if the coaches tailor it to his strengths. Nelson can make plays. But he needs to do so. He does need to improve his happy feet and his urge run immediately. And for the record, we've run about three different offense the last 15+ years.

He's not a good fit for our offense, unmodified. And he does need to improve on all those levels, if we want an 8+ win season.


Do you think Riley Nelson can win 8 games in 2010?
- Yeah, if they change the offense, which is a big mistake. I think we are shooting for 8 wins with Riley, and we most likely getting there.

Do you think Riley Nelson can win 10 games in 2010?
- Not a chance in hell. I wish, just isn't happening.
Do you think Jake Heaps can win 8 games in 2010?
- Yes
Do you think Jake Heaps can win 10 games in 2010?
- Yes, especially including a bowl victory as a 10th.

Do you think Riley Nelson can lose 6 games in 2010?
- Nope
Do you think Jake Heaps can lose 6 games in 2010?
- Nope
Here are my answers: Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, No and No.

And finally: Are you willing to change your mind in fall camp if it's clear Nelson is playing better than Heaps?
- Nothing would make me happier.

Because I'm more than willing to change my mind, because I'm rooting for the BYU Cougars and not the BYU quarterback position.
- good, me too. Unfortunately, for the time being, they are connected.

[scott715]

What Jake needs to learn is to read the D1 defense schemes. He might be able to learn that this summer. If not it will delay him from seeing the field.

[jonnylingo]

We are lucky. four very talented qbs. awesome problem to have. they all seem like stand up guys from what i have heard about them as well. it makes for a difficult decision. fall camp is going to be exciting. I just hope there are not any serious injuries.

[Mars]

I think most everyone will agree that during spring ball there was very little separation between the two QB's as has been stated many times on this board, leaving out personal opinion.

Actually, I think I'm one of many who saw Heaps slaughter his competition. Nelson is a good kid, but he wasn't playing on the same level as Jake at all.

[Brayden Green]

I think most everyone will agree that during spring ball there was very little separation between the two QB's as has been stated many times on this board, leaving out personal opinion.

Actually, I think I'm one of many who saw Heaps slaughter his competition. Nelson is a good kid, but he wasn't playing on the same level as Jake at all.

I second the motion.

[Cougs_Rule]

"There can BE only one."

Had to say it before "somebody" else did. Maybe he's watching HIghlander and is slow to respond.

Actually, I really think there will be two: Jake starts; Riley comes in intermittently to give breathers to Jake so he can get some in-game coaching, until he gets his feet under him mid season.