Honor Code office, ie HOA

[hawkwing]

As EM_Puma has said, we teach them correct principals and allow them to govern themselves. I agree 100% with that concept. Where we differ is that he believes someone should be allowed to attend BYU while not living those principals. My belief is that after you have taught those correct principals and the student is governing him or herself and decides to go a different way there should be a separation of the two. The student can govern themselves right on down to Texas Christian, Baylor, or some other "Christian" school that has no standards.

Joseph Smith excommunicated a number of people whom he had taught correct principals to.

Now, of course there are changes to be made in the enforcement. A student who has a change of heart and decides she no longer believes in the Church or wants to live the lifestyle? Lets help them get transferred to a place where they will be happier. Just as a missionary who is having sex with someone he's teaching should be released and allowed to do something that is not going to be wasting the Church's resources.

[byufan4ever]

Right, but where is the honor is being foreced to obey on bended knee with a big stick over your head?

Where is the "forced to obey on bended knee with a big stick over your head" coming from? A twisted version of what the Honor Code Office is? There is no HCO person assigned to follow you around and ensure you do not violate the code. Most interactions are ensuring recognition of the code and encouragement to adhere to it since the code is the minimum expectation of honorable behavior during the time enrolled at BYU.

It would be nice to step back from the theoretical world where everyone is altruistic and looking to maintain their personal honor above all else. With over 33k students from around the world in one place, it makes sense to define the standard of honorable behavior.

I was being a little over the top on purpose. Hopefully we can all agree that this is not what we want BYU and the HCO to become. But there have been incidents of the HCO being heavy handed and of certain individuals being targeted or snitched on. I am not saying and I don't believe I've seen anyone else say that BYU should allow students to be in full rebellion of the Honor Code. But I think the HC needs to be tweaked and we need to be less Nazzi/Pharisee about it.

One of my coworkers has a family member that got sent to the HCO for "walking on the grass." Now there could be more to the story than that and there are definitely plenty of sidewalks on campus, but it's things like that story that make me question the HCO.

[Fido]

I was being a little over the top on purpose. Hopefully we can all agree that this is not what we want BYU and the HCO to become. But there have been incidents of the HCO being heavy handed and of certain individuals being targeted or snitched on. I am not saying and I don't believe I've seen anyone else say that BYU should allow students to be in full rebellion of the Honor Code. But I think the HC needs to be tweaked and we need to be less Nazzi/Pharisee about it.

One of my coworkers has a family member that got sent to the HCO for "walking on the grass." Now there could be more to the story than that and there are definitely plenty of sidewalks on campus, but it's things like that story that make me question the HCO.

Which part of the Honor Code deals with walking on the grass vs walking on the sidewalk? And what would that discussion be like? "We understand you have been walking on the grass between classes." "Um....yeah, the sidewalk was really crowded and I needed to turn north." "Such violations will not be tolerated. You are on probation so watch your step......literally!"

[EM_Puma]

As EM_Puma has said, we teach them correct principals and allow them to govern themselves. I agree 100% with that concept. Where we differ is that he believes someone should be allowed to attend BYU while not living those principals.

Nope, not what I was saying. I believe that whomever is giving their endorsement to the individual should monitor it and counsel with the student.

Here are the bullet points of the Honor Code:
As a matter of personal commitment, the faculty, administration, staff, and students of Brigham Young University, Brigham Young University-Hawaii, BYU-I, and LDS Business College seek to demonstrate in daily living on and off-campus those moral virtues encompassed in the gospel of Jesus Christ, and will:
Be honest
Live a chaste and virtuous life
Obey the law and all campus policies
Use clean language
Respect others
Abstain from alcoholic beverages, tobacco, tea, coffee, and substance abuse
Participate regularly in church services
Observe Dress and Grooming Standards
Encourage others in their commitment to comply with the Honor Code

To me, "the participate regularly in church services" would generally trip up the individual that was way out of bounds. Their church leader could withdraw their endorsement of the individual, and therefore the student loses their ability to continue to be matriculated.

But really, who actually in their life follows these 100%? I think we are all trying, some more than others. Theoretically, if you exceed the speed limit, you are out of compliance. Do you think there are students attending BYU that have been sited for moving violations but haven't come forth to the HCO? And in my mind they shouldn't, but the code only says "demonstrate". So if they repent of speeding, they're okay?

It's just a slippery slope to have a department that should be monitoring these items.

In my years of working for the Church, I had two employees that worked for several years. You have to have a temple recommend to work at the church and they had them, but both of them had issues with the word of wisdom. I didn't know they did. If I would have seen them out of compliance I would have been responsible to deal with it. I felt very betrayed when it came up later when their secrets were discovered. One of them "chewed" and a piece of his chaw accidentally fell on the floor of the bathroom and an employee saw it and turned them in. They had self-justified themselves in where they would observe the word of wisdom during the month they had to be renewed for their temple recommends and that's how they justified believing they were worthy of that recommend.

We didn't have a department that specifically had the mandate to observe compliance after the individual had made the commitment that they were in adherence to their church leader. That's where I am with that honor code. I believe if you attend BYU, you should "demonstrate" the actions that indicate you are striving to live within the code. If you cannot, then you do need to go elsewhere.

[nuk13]

Teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves.

The HCO has good intentions, but like many things it carries unintended consequences. Couple of examples, which I may have shared already (apologies).



Second example. While in the MTC I remember walking to the temple one morning and seeing the white vans circling the MTC. I asked my companion why they were there. He grew up in Provo. He told me they were there to make sure missionaries didn't leave the MTC and to make sure missionaries didn't break the rules. I laughed. I thought he was joking.

A week later, my companion's mom dropped some stuff off on the lawn by the temple. My companion went to go get it (why pay the postage when your mom lives up the street). His mom happened to be leaving just as we got there. As my companion went to get the package this white van appears out of no where. Out pops this 20 something screaming and yelling at my companion about breaking the rules and yelling at his mom about breaking the rules. My companion defended his mom. A fight nearly broke out. Lots of "wrong" on all sides, but I walked away thinking, "Those vans really are there circling around making sure we're in line." Missionaries are volunteers. Missionaries pay to be in the MTC, yet the church employs security vans to ensure the consenting adults stay in line and don't leave. It's like prison.

The HC and the HCO are archaic. It feeds a holier-than-thou culture, reinforces focus on rules and standards as opposed to love and charity, and misses the mark.

I like what you're saying Gunk including the interesting part about the Jews I deleted to make my entry shorter. I do not agree that there should be patrols to enforce missionaries keeping the rules. As you point out "Missionaries are volunteers". The gospel is true and perfect at it's present level (until we get more changes then it will be perfect at that level) but those of us that love it and teach it are not. Those running the HCO are not either but there should be (and probably is) room for repentance. As far as grooming goes, to me it goes too far. I see beards and long hair in the temple and I don't think those ladies should have to shave. (Sorry, I couldn't help the joke.) Those men have passed their interviews and are welcome in the temple.

As far as this sight goes, thank you for it. I don't go to other sights but I appreciate expressing opinions on here even though we have disagreements. I don't see name calling and that is important.

[snoscythe]

"Teach them correct principles and allow them to govern themselves" is a way overused quote from Joseph Smith, and often misused--as in this context.

No one is forcing BYU students to pledge to abide by the Honor Code. The Church and the prophets are definitely not forcing anyone to sign on to live by this Code--it is something that is part and parcel of your application process that you either choose to sign or choose not to. Here is, in part, what they sign and agree to:

Students must be in good Honor Code standing to be admitted to, continue enrollment at, and graduate from BYU. The term "good Honor Code standing" means that a student's conduct is consistent with the Honor Code and the ideals and principles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Excommunication, disfellowshipment, or disaffiliation from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints automatically results in the loss of good Honor Code standing. Further, a student is not in good Honor Code standing if his or her ecclesiastical endorsement has either lapsed or has been withdrawn, or if the Honor Code Office has placed a "hold" on the student's records.

All students, upon admission to BYU, are required to observe the standards of the Honor Code at all times, whether on or off campus. When the Honor Code Office receives reports of misconduct prior to a prospective student's admission or readmission, those reports are referred to the Admissions Office for appropriate action. When the Honor Code Office receives reports of student misconduct after admission or readmission, but before registration for classes, the Honor Code Office typically notifies the student, indicating that a "hold" will be placed on the student's registration if the matter is not resolved to the satisfaction of the Honor Code Office by a specified date. The Honor Code Office also reserves the right to place a "hold" on the record of any student based on reports of student misconduct prior to notifying the student.

All students are required to conduct themselves in a manner consistent with the Honor Code. In addition, students may not influence or seek to influence others to engage in behavior inconsistent with the Honor Code.

Students must abstain from the use of alcohol, tobacco, and illegal substances and from the intentional misuse or abuse of any substance. Sexual misconduct; obscene or indecent conduct or expressions; disorderly or disruptive conduct; participation in gambling activities; involvement with pornographic, erotic, indecent, or offensive material; and any other conduct or action inconsistent with the principles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Honor Code is not permitted.

Violations of the Honor Code may result in actions up to and including separation from the university.

Not only is the Honor Code part of what you agree to, but the enforcement as well. Your agency is 100% intact -- you can govern yourself and choose one way or the other.

I don't think Joseph Smith was using "correct principles" and "govern themselves" to mean that Saints shouldn't be bound by their commitments. I find that to be an offensive interpretation of his words--to justify breaking your commitment, your honor after you have reaped the benefit of making a pledge.

Yes, the Honor Code Office needs a chill pill and enforcement needs a rehaul. BUT -- if we are to have an Honor Code, it needs to mean something. I am also a Baylor graduate, and their Honor Code has been watered down to a joke -- e.g. "Baylor will be guided by the biblical understanding that human sexuality is a gift from God and that physical sexual intimacy is to be expressed in the context of marital fidelity. Thus, it is expected that Baylor students, faculty and staff will engage in behaviors consistent with this
understanding of human sexuality. " It's a giant nothing burger--a plain opinion statement, and it's a point of humor for Baylor students and alums (as well as non-Baylor folks).

If BYU is not going to have an enforced Honor Code, I think the Church would rather shut it down, and unfortunately, that would be okay with 75% of the people really pushing for the change.

[snoscythe]

"Teach them correct principles and allow them to govern themselves" is a way overused quote from Joseph Smith, and often misused--as in this context.

No one is forcing BYU students to pledge to abide by the Honor Code. The Church and the prophets are definitely not forcing anyone to sign on to live by this Code--it is something that is part and parcel of your application process that you either choose to sign or choose not to. Here is, in part, what they sign and agree to:

Students must be in good Honor Code standing to be admitted to, continue enrollment at, and graduate from BYU. The term "good Honor Code standing" means that a student's conduct is consistent with the Honor Code and the ideals and principles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Excommunication, disfellowshipment, or disaffiliation from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints automatically results in the loss of good Honor Code standing. Further, a student is not in good Honor Code standing if his or her ecclesiastical endorsement has either lapsed or has been withdrawn, or if the Honor Code Office has placed a "hold" on the student's records.

All students, upon admission to BYU, are required to observe the standards of the Honor Code at all times, whether on or off campus. When the Honor Code Office receives reports of misconduct prior to a prospective student's admission or readmission, those reports are referred to the Admissions Office for appropriate action. When the Honor Code Office receives reports of student misconduct after admission or readmission, but before registration for classes, the Honor Code Office typically notifies the student, indicating that a "hold" will be placed on the student's registration if the matter is not resolved to the satisfaction of the Honor Code Office by a specified date. The Honor Code Office also reserves the right to place a "hold" on the record of any student based on reports of student misconduct prior to notifying the student.

All students are required to conduct themselves in a manner consistent with the Honor Code. In addition, students may not influence or seek to influence others to engage in behavior inconsistent with the Honor Code.

Students must abstain from the use of alcohol, tobacco, and illegal substances and from the intentional misuse or abuse of any substance. Sexual misconduct; obscene or indecent conduct or expressions; disorderly or disruptive conduct; participation in gambling activities; involvement with pornographic, erotic, indecent, or offensive material; and any other conduct or action inconsistent with the principles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Honor Code is not permitted.

Violations of the Honor Code may result in actions up to and including separation from the university.

https://policy.byu.edu/view/index.php?p=26

Not only is the Honor Code part of what you agree to, but the enforcement as well. Your agency is 100% intact -- you can govern yourself and choose one way or the other. Once you sign that line, however, you have opted in to having the Code enforced and the penalties for failing to keep your promise. You can't eat your cake and have it too.

I don't think Joseph Smith was using "correct principles" and "govern themselves" to mean that Saints shouldn't be bound by their commitments. I find that to be an offensive interpretation of his words--to justify breaking your commitment, your honor after you have reaped the benefit of making a pledge.

Yes, the Honor Code Office needs a chill pill and enforcement needs a rehaul. BUT -- if we are to have an Honor Code, it needs to mean something. I am also a Baylor graduate, and their Honor Code has been watered down to a joke -- e.g. "Baylor will be guided by the biblical understanding that human sexuality is a gift from God and that physical sexual intimacy is to be expressed in the context of marital fidelity. Thus, it is expected that Baylor students, faculty and staff will engage in behaviors consistent with this understanding of human sexuality. " It's a giant nothing burger--a plain opinion statement, and it's a point of humor for Baylor students and alums (as well as non-Baylor folks).

If BYU is not going to have an enforced Honor Code, I think the Church would rather shut it down, and unfortunately, that would be okay with 75% of the people really pushing for the change.

[Mars]

I support the honor code (hair and clothes aside). But when a girl is kicked out of BYU for being raped, you know the HCO is not a righteous organization. And they did just that, after the girl reported the rape to the police and to her bishop, who stated by his spirit of discernment that she was speaking clearly and truthfully. The HCO doesn't even care that you follow the code sometimes, they care what it looks like to people who don't know the facts of the case. And that is evil.

[Fido]

I support the honor code (hair and clothes aside). But when a girl is kicked out of BYU for being raped, you know the HCO is not a righteous organization. And they did just that, after the girl reported the rape to the police and to her bishop, who stated by his spirit of discernment that she was speaking clearly and truthfully. The HCO doesn't even care that you follow the code sometimes, they care what it looks like to people who don't know the facts of the case. And that is evil.

It wasn't that simple. Aren't you referring to the case where she was at a party taking illegal drugs when the rape occurred? So in the course of reporting the rape the other behavior came to light which was blatantly against the honor code and the other behavior was the reason for being kicked out. There was some amnesty revisions made since then to encourage people to report, but the mis-characterization that she was kicked out for being raped always bothered me. Or are you referring to some other case?

[Mars]

I support the honor code (hair and clothes aside). But when a girl is kicked out of BYU for being raped, you know the HCO is not a righteous organization. And they did just that, after the girl reported the rape to the police and to her bishop, who stated by his spirit of discernment that she was speaking clearly and truthfully. The HCO doesn't even care that you follow the code sometimes, they care what it looks like to people who don't know the facts of the case. And that is evil.

It wasn't that simple. Aren't you referring to the case where she was at a party taking illegal drugs when the rape occurred? So in the course of reporting the rape the other behavior came to light which was blatantly against the honor code and the other behavior was the reason for being kicked out. There was some amnesty revisions made since then to encourage people to report, but the mis-characterization that she was kicked out for being raped always bothered me. Or are you referring to some other case?

A different case.