Prop 8 Revisited

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SpiffCoug
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Re: Prop 8 Revisited

Post by SpiffCoug » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:49 am

To me, I see Prop 8 as somewhat similar to the Nauvoo Expositor. Mobs only need a reason to assemble and march. It doesn't need to be a good reason; just A reason.

The mob in/around Carthage & Nauvoo wanted Joseph Smith dead. But they needed him in custody so they knew where to get him without him being able to escape. When he decided to destroy the Expositor they had their excuse to lock him up. Destroying that printing press was a mistake that cost Smith his life. His reasons for doing so, while probably justified to his and Mormons' minds led to his death/assassination/martyrdom.

Prop 8, while joining it made sense to religiously minded individuals (almost every religion worked together to oppose it) it gave the LGBTQ "mob" their reason to march against the Church. It gave the mob the evidence of the Church's hatred and bigotry and discriminatory inclinations towards people of that persuasion.
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Re: Prop 8 Revisited

Post by KingCoug » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:03 pm

Mars wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:36 am
It's like the scriptures say: When you have 100 sheep, and 1 of them gets lost, pssh, whatever, bye you stupid sheep.
I'm not forgetting or ignoring the parable of the lost sheep. I'm commenting on the tone some posts have where it seems like they're saying the Church itself is jeopardized when some members leave. Or, even worse, they suggest members leaving is somehow the Church's fault.
Mars wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:40 am
As Boise notes, youth suicide is suddenly a huge trend in the Western States for whatever reason. Washington, Oregon, Nevada, Idaho, Wyoming, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, and Colorado. So it's not exactly correlated to religious or non-religious, conservative or liberal.

I also agree that the Church has done a good job with the historical essays on their website about tough issues. That's what makes it so easy to compare Prop 8 to Blacks and the Priesthood, the fact that the Church admits that sometimes, they make mistakes, and just plain get things wrong.

The difference is that homosexual acts are a sin, and being black isn't, obviously. But at the same time there's no known "cure" for homosexuality. It's basically a death-sentence sin some people are born with hidden in their DNA, with no chance for parole until sometime after this life is over. That's tough. The more kind and loving we can be with people suffering that fate, IMO, the better. I can't even imagine how hard that must be.
First, are you just comparing Prop 8 itself to the Priesthood ban or are you comparing the Church's entire doctrine on homosexuality to the Priesthood ban? That you admit that homosexual acts are a sin would suggest the former but I want to be clear. And, yes, SSA must be an incredible challenge. One only the Lord can ultimately judge. The problem is when people, including some misguided members, think it's the Church that came up with the doctrine when it's the Lord Himself. In other words, it's the Lord who asks members with SSA to carry that cross, not just a bunch of old, out of touch guys at the top of the Church who can change it if they want to. Kindness and love are certainly in order but so is the understanding that the doctrine is not going to change nor should it.

Second, when has the Church ever said it was wrong with the Priesthood ban? I don't recall reading that in the essay. The Church has disavowed prior reasons given for it but that's not a reason to jump to the conclusion, which many seem very eager to do, that it was a mistake. At the very least these people seem to sell every prophet up to Pres Kimball very short. Or they seem to think the Lord would just allow the Church to be wrong on the issue for decades. Beyond all that, going too far with the thinking that Church leaders can make mistakes today, because they have before, is a slippery slope indeed and gives those who are not grounded in the Gospel or have the Spirit a reason to say "The Church is wrong but hopefully they'll come around" whenever they don't agree with it. That's what some members (or former members) are doing now with the gay issue and they misread and misuse the Priesthhood ban to justify that thinking.
SpiffCoug wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:49 am
To me, I see Prop 8 as somewhat similar to the Nauvoo Expositor. Mobs only need a reason to assemble and march. It doesn't need to be a good reason; just A reason.

The mob in/around Carthage & Nauvoo wanted Joseph Smith dead. But they needed him in custody so they knew where to get him without him being able to escape. When he decided to destroy the Expositor they had their excuse to lock him up. Destroying that printing press was a mistake that cost Smith his life. His reasons for doing so, while probably justified to his and Mormons' minds led to his death/assassination/martyrdom.

Prop 8, while joining it made sense to religiously minded individuals (almost every religion worked together to oppose it) it gave the LGBTQ "mob" their reason to march against the Church. It gave the mob the evidence of the Church's hatred and bigotry and discriminatory inclinations towards people of that persuasion.
Even if Prop 8 had never happened, don't think for a minute they wouldn't have found plenty of other reasons to attack the Church. Anyone who reads the news has seen case after case where they're just looking for a fight and to squash whoever doesn't agree with them. And this should be no surprise to anyone who reads the scriptures where it's taught that Satan will rage in the hearts of men and stir them up to anger against that which is good.
"Go forth boldly, nobly, and independent." - Brother Joseph

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Re: Prop 8 Revisited

Post by Ddawg » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:28 pm

KingCoug wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:03 pm
Or, even worse, they suggest members leaving is somehow the Church's fault.
You take a pretty hard tone in some of your posts. Sometimes it has been the Church's fault that people leave. You must remember, it's a case by case basis. There are all kinds of disturbing examples.

I've had some pretty lengthy conversations with my stake president. We happen to be pretty good friends. He frankly admits that church leaders make mistakes. These are mistakes that affect peoples lives. Does that mean the gospel is not true? No. The gospel of Jesus Christ is perfect, as Christ was perfect.

That said, the administration of the church is by men. Some pretty dedicated folks that give it their best. Sometimes they are inspired. Sometimes not. Do they make mistakes? Yes they do. By admitting church leaders at all levels make mistakes does not mean the gospel is not true. It simply means that humans are fallible and have flaws. We're all striving. The important point is that we keep striving, and try not to offend people that have struggles. An extended hand is more welcoming than a harsh judgment.

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Re: Prop 8 Revisited

Post by KingCoug » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:24 pm

Ddawg wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:28 pm
KingCoug wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:03 pm
Or, even worse, they suggest members leaving is somehow the Church's fault.
You take a pretty hard tone in some of your posts. Sometimes it has been the Church's fault that people leave. You must remember, it's a case by case basis. There are all kinds of disturbing examples.

I've had some pretty lengthy conversations with my stake president. We happen to be pretty good friends. He frankly admits that church leaders make mistakes. These are mistakes that affect peoples lives. Does that mean the gospel is not true? No. The gospel of Jesus Christ is perfect, as Christ was perfect.

That said, the administration of the church is by men. Some pretty dedicated folks that give it their best. Sometimes they are inspired. Sometimes not. Do they make mistakes? Yes they do. By admitting church leaders at all levels make mistakes does not mean the gospel is not true. It simply means that humans are fallible and have flaws. We're all striving. The important point is that we keep striving, and try not to offend people that have struggles. An extended hand is more welcoming than a harsh judgment.
Ask 100 people who left the Church who's fault it was that they left and 99 will blame the Church or an individual in the Church. It's a given that Church leaders are not perfect. But that can't be used as a valid justification for leaving the Church. But that's what we see pretty much across the board - those who've left never taking accountability for themselves and always placing the blame somewhere else.
"Go forth boldly, nobly, and independent." - Brother Joseph

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Re: Prop 8 Revisited

Post by SpiffCoug » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:43 pm

KingCoug wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:03 pm
Even if Prop 8 had never happened, don't think for a minute they wouldn't have found plenty of other reasons to attack the Church. Anyone who reads the news has seen case after case where they're just looking for a fight and to squash whoever doesn't agree with them. And this should be no surprise to anyone who reads the scriptures where it's taught that Satan will rage in the hearts of men and stir them up to anger against that which is good.
Of course they would have found a reason. It was some poor reading of the tea leaves for the Church. Same with the Expositor.
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Re: Prop 8 Revisited

Post by Ddawg » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:44 pm

KingCoug wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:24 pm
- those who've left never taking accountability for themselves and always placing the blame somewhere else.
Not true 100% of the time. You take a pretty hard line. As I posted, it must be looked at case by case. Painting people with a broad brush is rarely helpful.

I could share a case or two with you. I don't have the time right now.

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Re: Prop 8 Revisited

Post by SpiffCoug » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:27 pm

I have no problem painting with a broad brush. But I think you must still leave room for exceptions.
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Re: Prop 8 Revisited

Post by Mars » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:21 pm

"Over time, Church leaders and members advanced many theories to explain the priesthood and temple restrictions. None of these explanations is accepted today as the official doctrine of the Church."

I guess people manage to read and interpret that in different ways. To me, it means that the reasons given to the Saints about the Priesthood ban weren't true. What was published by Bruce R. McConkie in Mormon Doctrine wasn't true. I don't see why some have a hard time seeing how others compare that to their feelings about the relationship between the church and those with same-sex attraction today.

If I pray about it, and I receive an answer that disagrees with what I'm told in Sacrament meeting, who am I to believe, God, or my church leaders?
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Re: Prop 8 Revisited

Post by Ddawg » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:27 pm

SpiffCoug wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:27 pm
I have no problem painting with a broad brush. But I think you must still leave room for exceptions.
The reason you can't paint with a broad brush is because you are dealing with peoples lives. Ultimately, we are suppose to be helping people - ourselves and others - return and live with God. Right? By our very nature we all fall short, to a greater or lesser degree.

David O. McKay said - “The divinity of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is shown in its organization as well as in its teachings. Godhood, brotherhood, service—these three guiding principles … permeate all our Church activity.”

Godhood, brotherhood, and service should guide us in all our activities. I would submit that includes disaffected members, ex-communicated members, and non-members in all walks of life including the LBGTQ community. I understand that many in that community is aggressive, militant, hostile, really don't like us. I got it. Still, I submit that we can maintain our standards and principles without drawing a hard/hostile line. Why make enemies when you can make friends?

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Re: Prop 8 Revisited

Post by KingCoug » Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:15 pm

Mars wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:21 pm
"Over time, Church leaders and members advanced many theories to explain the priesthood and temple restrictions. None of these explanations is accepted today as the official doctrine of the Church."

I guess people manage to read and interpret that in different ways. To me, it means that the reasons given to the Saints about the Priesthood ban weren't true. What was published by Bruce R. McConkie in Mormon Doctrine wasn't true. I don't see why some have a hard time seeing how others compare that to their feelings about the relationship between the church and those with same-sex attraction today.

If I pray about it, and I receive an answer that disagrees with what I'm told in Sacrament meeting, who am I to believe, God, or my church leaders?
Your post above demonstrates just how lost you are on this.

Allow me to make it as simple as I can...

The doctrine of the Church on homosexual acts is never going to change because it goes directly against what the Plan of Salvation (including exaltation) is all about. Men and women sealed in an eternal marriage is needed for this and that's why homosexuality is a dead end. This is, or should be, basic Gospel 101 stuff. And it's hard to have sympathy with Church members, including yourself, who haven't learned it and so are all the more vulnerable to the philosophies of men on this issue.

Speaking of Gospel 101 stuff, there's a place for personal revelation. But if you're saying you have - or could - pray about something (be it the Church's stance on homosexuality or whatever) and the Lord is going to give you the real scoop while the prophet and apostles are left in the dark, you're even more delusional than I thought.

Go back and read that quote from Joseph Smith on apostasy.
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