Prop 8 Revisited

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snoscythe
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Re: Prop 8 Revisited

Post by snoscythe » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:53 pm

Mars wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:53 pm
Isn't Utah #1 in youth suicide nationally?
No. That would be Alaska.

My guess is that someone started claiming that when they misunderstood the stat that suicide is the leading cause of death for those aged 10-24 in Utah. Unfortunately, suicide is the leading cause of death in that age group in most states.

When you control Utah for race and other factors, it falls to just about the national average, not that that is anything to brag about, but the LGBT community has been exaggerating Utah's relative suicide crisis in its attacks on Church policy. Utah has a higher suicide rate because it is white with a significant population of Native Americans, in a cold winter/hot summer climate, and blends rural with upper-middle class populations.

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Re: Prop 8 Revisited

Post by Mars » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:23 pm

Some quick stats I've found:

Utah is 6th nationally in youth suicide (2015), 8th nationally in adult suicide (2014), and in the top 10 in depression.

Youth suicide has tripled over the past 10 years in Utah.
Youth mental illness has tripled over the past 6 years in Utah.
Youth suicide has gone up about 35% of the past 10 years nationally.

Youth who attend church at least once a week are less likely to commit suicide.

The Huffington Post claims a positive relationship between increasing youth suicide in high LDS states. They don't claim causation, and no studies have been done that do claim proof of causation.

LGBT youth nationally are 8 times more likely to commit suicide.

The leading cause of death for youth nationally is accidental trauma/injury.
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Re: Prop 8 Revisited

Post by BroncoBot » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:16 pm

I'll consider the church's prop 8 efforts a mistake when I see that the LGBT community/leadership quit their political tactics against churches. I see the church's efforts as another wall the LGBT group had to cross to keeping traditional marriage as the norm, as it should be in a healthy society. Does it mean someone isn't fee to practice their chosen sexual orientation? no.
The LGBT politically active segment are waging war on traditional values and traditional beliefs. I don't appreciate that, just like they don't appreciate effots to KEEP traditional values in the mainstream. I can appreciate any LGBT person who comes out and wants to practice their beliefs and don't have a problem with it. But when that same segment wants to force me to believe that it is normal (or even sexually correct) that's when I can't bend anymore.

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Re: Prop 8 Revisited

Post by Gunk » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:32 pm

Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's.

Again, I see no place for politics in religion. If the Church does a good job teaching correct principles and something pops up on the ballot that is contrary to LDS principles, people will vote and get involved according to the values they believe in. Shouldn't the Church trust its membership?

Now, for Prop 8 the Church went a whole lot further. For example, stake presidents in our area were asked to make a list of wealthy members (wonder how they figured that out), invite said members to a fireside, and "compel" each member to donate a minimum of $1000. Of course, the members were told how they would be blessed...

Why didn't the Church just write a check themselves? Oh, because if they wrote too big of a check (the Church donated over 100k) they would have lost their tax-exempt status. So, instead the Church "invited" individual members to make donations. I guess keeping their tax exempt status was more important than standing up for traditional marriage.

The Church is bleeding members under the age of 45. It's things like Prop 8, blacks and the priesthood, polygamy, overall lack of transparency, and a slew of other oddities that have people scratching their heads. Vague essays and new D&C chapter headings do little to bring clarity. In the past, people with such questions would just silently wonder. In the age of the Internet, that's not the case. People can get together. Find others that are also struggling and not getting answers. There's a wealth of new information to go off of and inform decisions. Reading "anti" propaganda doesn't require secretly visiting an obscure religious bookstore. It's a different world, and the Church still doesn't get it.
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Re: Prop 8 Revisited

Post by BoiseBYU » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:33 pm

Mars wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:23 pm
Some quick stats I've found:

Utah is 6th nationally in youth suicide (2015), 8th nationally in adult suicide (2014), and in the top 10 in depression.

Youth suicide has tripled over the past 10 years in Utah.
Youth mental illness has tripled over the past 6 years in Utah.
Youth suicide has gone up about 35% of the past 10 years nationally.

Youth who attend church at least once a week are less likely to commit suicide.

The Huffington Post claims a positive relationship between increasing youth suicide in high LDS states. They don't claim causation, and no studies have been done that do claim proof of causation.

LGBT youth nationally are 8 times more likely to commit suicide.

The leading cause of death for youth nationally is accidental trauma/injury.
First and foremost any suicide is a tragedy and thus to go and talk statistics is somewhat uncomfortable. That said, I’ve tried to look at the data from a variety of ways and the bottom line is we do not have adequate data to connect LDS LGBT youth and suicide in any correlative and meaningful way. There are some ferociously anti Mormons folk who claim large numbers of such suicides, but the numbers can’t be substantiated. And while in the abstract UT’s position as number 6 seems large, when compared to surrounding states it is not statistically out of order. There seems to be a high altitude issue somehow at play. None of this is to downplay the seriousness of youth suicide or the need for church members to be more inclusive of our LGBT brothers and sisters. But for now it is unwarranted to claim that LDS LGBT members are committing suicide and it has to do with their status as LDS.

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Re: Prop 8 Revisited

Post by BoiseBYU » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:56 pm

Gunk wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:32 pm
Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's.

Again, I see no place for politics in religion. If the Church does a good job teaching correct principles and something pops up on the ballot that is contrary to LDS principles, people will vote and get involved according to the values they believe in. Shouldn't the Church trust its membership?

Now, for Prop 8 the Church went a whole lot further. For example, stake presidents in our area were asked to make a list of wealthy members (wonder how they figured that out), invite said members to a fireside, and "compel" each member to donate a minimum of $1000. Of course, the members were told how they would be blessed...

Why didn't the Church just write a check themselves? Oh, because if they wrote too big of a check (the Church donated over 100k) they would have lost their tax-exempt status. So, instead the Church "invited" individual members to make donations. I guess keeping their tax exempt status was more important than standing up for traditional marriage.

The Church is bleeding members under the age of 45. It's things like Prop 8, blacks and the priesthood, polygamy, overall lack of transparency, and a slew of other oddities that have people scratching their heads. Vague essays and new D&C chapter headings do little to bring clarity. In the past, people with such questions would just silently wonder. In the age of the Internet, that's not the case. People can get together. Find others that are also struggling and not getting answers. There's a wealth of new information to go off of and inform decisions. Reading "anti" propaganda doesn't require secretly visiting an obscure religious bookstore. It's a different world, and the Church still doesn't get it.
People have been “scratching their heads,” whatever that means, for over 100 years as it relates to polygamy. The protests regarding blacks and women and the priesthood have been around for a long time too. So if they really are scratching their heads, they’re probably to the bone by now. The essays recently released are far far from vague but are instead direct, clarifying and transparent in every way regarding these challenging issues. To claim that the Church does not get it is flat out ignorant of the multitudinous ways the Church is reaching out to people. Younger people are leaving the Church, but this is true across many religions. It is not an LDS problem alone and to lump it all on things like polygamy is a canard. You ask should not the Church trust its members and I can ask you a like question: should not you and have faith in and trust the prophets? That does not mean they are perfect or will never err, but in my book it means having faith they’re seeking the Lord’s guidance in these challenging times.

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Re: Prop 8 Revisited

Post by KingCoug » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:03 am

A lot of talk in this thread seems to be going on the thinking that the Church is in trouble when members leave it (for whatever foolish reason). The Church will be fine. The Lord can do His own work. It's those that have left it that have the problem. They need the Church far more than it needs them.
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Re: Prop 8 Revisited

Post by Mars » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:36 am

It's like the scriptures say: When you have 100 sheep, and 1 of them gets lost, pssh, whatever, bye you stupid sheep.
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Re: Prop 8 Revisited

Post by Mars » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:40 am

As Boise notes, youth suicide is suddenly a huge trend in the Western States for whatever reason. Washington, Oregon, Nevada, Idaho, Wyoming, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, and Colorado. So it's not exactly correlated to religious or non-religious, conservative or liberal.

I also agree that the Church has done a good job with the historical essays on their website about tough issues. That's what makes it so easy to compare Prop 8 to Blacks and the Priesthood, the fact that the Church admits that sometimes, they make mistakes, and just plain get things wrong.

The difference is that homosexual acts are a sin, and being black isn't, obviously. But at the same time there's no known "cure" for homosexuality. It's basically a death-sentence sin some people are born with hidden in their DNA, with no chance for parole until sometime after this life is over. That's tough. The more kind and loving we can be with people suffering that fate, IMO, the better. I can't even imagine how hard that must be.
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Re: Prop 8 Revisited

Post by BoiseBYU » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:45 am

Mars wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:40 am
As Boise notes, youth suicide is suddenly a huge trend in the Western States for whatever reason. Washington, Oregon, Nevada, Idaho, Wyoming, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, and Colorado. So it's not exactly correlated to religious or non-religious, conservative or liberal.

I also agree that the Church has done a good job with the historical essays on their website about tough issues. That's what makes it so easy to compare Prop 8 to Blacks and the Priesthood, the fact that the Church admits that sometimes, they make mistakes, and just plain get things wrong.

The difference is that homosexual acts are a sin, and being black isn't, obviously. But at the same time there's no known "cure" for homosexuality. It's basically a death-sentence sin some people are born with hidden in their DNA, with no chance for parole until sometime after this life is over. That's tough. The more kind and loving we can be with people suffering that fate, IMO, the better. I can't even imagine how hard that must be.
I have dear family members who are gay. We have gay people in our ward who attend. I cannot imagine how hard it must be for them. I love them dearly and so admire their efforts to live the Gospel and keep their covenants. But I am not so proud to think that I have it easier. I have my own weaknesses. That is what the Church is for, to help us all bear one another's burdens, and to move forward together. Maybe in hindsight more will be said about Prop 8 by the Church. I would not be surprised that internally Church leaders have concluded that the tact they took with Prop 8 is not an approach that works. But that is sheer speculation on my part. I find comfort in what the Church has done since in loving our gay neighbors. The Church was behind landmark legislation in Utah of all places that put into place protections for gays in various areas that went along with religious freedom protections. Utah! It was thanks to the Church. The Church has opened up new forums and groups for gay members. Gay members are called to Church leadership positions. Sometimes these changes are incremental but I see them as being in the Lord's due time. The amount and quality of changes will never please all, but they are very real changes. There is so much more we as members can do, especially with regard to our youth who are vulnerable and need our loving attention.

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