Prop 8 Revisited

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Gunk
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Prop 8 Revisited

Post by Gunk » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:56 pm

Getting involved in Prop 8 was one of the stupidest things the church ever did.
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Re: Dick Harmon on Rise and Fall of BYU Athletics

Post by 1967cougar » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:28 pm

Gunk wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:56 pm
Getting involved in Prop 8 was one of the stupidest things the church ever did.
In my 68+ years of walking this earth, I have yet to see the Church do anything that remotely looks stupid. I’ve seen a lot of stupid members but not any stupidity from the Church.

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Re: Dick Harmon on Rise and Fall of BYU Athletics

Post by BoiseBYU » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:36 pm

Gunk wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:56 pm
Getting involved in Prop 8 was one of the stupidest things the church ever did.
While reasonable people can debate, years later and in hindsight, the merits of the Church’s stand regarding Prop 8, I think it unfair and inaccurate to call that participation “stupid.”

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Re: Dick Harmon on Rise and Fall of BYU Athletics

Post by Ddawg » Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:11 pm

In hindsight, what good did Prop 8 do? It's no longer the law. Never will be again. And hardened very vocal groups against BYU and the church. So, by supporting Prop 8 a temporary battle was won, and it appears the war has been lost and enemies made.

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Re: Dick Harmon on Rise and Fall of BYU Athletics

Post by Cougarfan87 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:33 pm

Ddawg wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:11 pm
In hindsight, what good did Prop 8 do? It's no longer the law. Never will be again. And hardened very vocal groups against BYU and the church. So, by supporting Prop 8 a temporary battle was won, and it appears the war has been lost and enemies made.
Why were bretheren sent to Zion’s Camp when it was doomed to fail? Could it be that prop 8 was a zion’s Camp for those members most in contact with these issues of right and wrong? What message was sent to members in California who were asked to support prop 8, but later ridiculed and villified for it? I have found in matters of faith that our efforts are usually far more important than temporary temporal results, for there will be an accounting given at some future date concerning how we tried to improve this place while we were here.
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Re: Dick Harmon on Rise and Fall of BYU Athletics

Post by hawkwing » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:37 pm

Cougarfan87 wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:33 pm
Ddawg wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:11 pm
In hindsight, what good did Prop 8 do? It's no longer the law. Never will be again. And hardened very vocal groups against BYU and the church. So, by supporting Prop 8 a temporary battle was won, and it appears the war has been lost and enemies made.
Why were bretheren sent to Zion’s Camp when it was doomed to fail? Could it be that prop 8 was a zion’s Camp for those members most in contact with these issues of right and wrong? What message was sent to members in California who were asked to support prop 8, but later ridiculed and villified for it? I have found in matters of faith that our efforts are usually far more important than temporary temporal results, for there will be an accounting given at some future date concerning how we tried to improve this place while we were here.
Interesting and thought provoking.

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Re: Dick Harmon on Rise and Fall of BYU Athletics

Post by a1247 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:04 pm

Ddawg wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:11 pm
In hindsight, what good did Prop 8 do? It's no longer the law. Never will be again. And hardened very vocal groups against BYU and the church. So, by supporting Prop 8 a temporary battle was won, and it appears the war has been lost and enemies made.
Every religion should stay out of politics. Every church and religion should worry about those that walk through the doors of there church, and stop trying to be the moral police of those who have no intention of listening or caring what they say.

Everyone can be mad at the LBGT groups, but they felt the church was doing them wrong during the whole prop 8. And the wrong they felt the church was doing against them they were able to turn the tables against the church and do it right back to them when BYU was trying to get into the B12.

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Re: Dick Harmon on Rise and Fall of BYU Athletics

Post by Ddawg » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:08 pm

Cougarfan87 wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:33 pm
Ddawg wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:11 pm
In hindsight, what good did Prop 8 do? It's no longer the law. Never will be again. And hardened very vocal groups against BYU and the church. So, by supporting Prop 8 a temporary battle was won, and it appears the war has been lost and enemies made.
Why were bretheren sent to Zion’s Camp when it was doomed to fail? Could it be that prop 8 was a zion’s Camp for those members most in contact with these issues of right and wrong? What message was sent to members in California who were asked to support prop 8, but later ridiculed and villified for it? I have found in matters of faith that our efforts are usually far more important than temporary temporal results, for there will be an accounting given at some future date concerning how we tried to improve this place while we were here.
I understand where you are coming from. I also disagree. A few points. I was one of those guys in CA asked to support Prop 8 by knocking on doors, talking to people, distributing door hangers, distributing flyers, distributing yard signs, posters, and being a poll watcher on election day. I did it all. I spent weeks and many hours working tirelessly. We alienated people. Families were split (within the church). I know an LDS gay teenager that hung himself. His family was devastated - and have quit coming to church (I am good friends with the father). BYU football was blocked from getting into the Big 12. I have an LDS friend who is a successful businessman in the entertainment industry. The Hollywood crowd are his clients. He makes million each year. He donated a big chunk to the Prop 8 effort. The LBGT crowd hacked the computers and got the list of Prop 8 donors and published their names. It severely hurt his business for years - and his family. There is a lot more I could share, but this will suffice.

Am I saying the church was stupid? No. But, you have to evaluate risk vs gain. A very public stance was taken. A hard line was drawn and a temporary victory was gained. That temporary gain (passing Prop 8 ) solidified and mobilized the pro-gay LBGT communities in CA and they won the war. The big picture here is that the LDS church and BYU have nothing to show for the Prop 8 endeavor, but they made a lot of enemies. These are permanent enemies. I am not suggesting lowering or abandoning standards. I am saying you must pick your battles wisely.

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Re: Dick Harmon on Rise and Fall of BYU Athletics

Post by Gunk » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:46 pm

I too was one called upon to support Prop 8. Participated in polling, was asked to donate money multiple times, and even found myself on a picket line a couple of times getting all sorts of lovely remarks hurled my way. It was surreal. The entire time I knew we were kicking a hornet's nest, but I did it anyways.

Prop 8 became a catalyst for the LGBT community. While the LGBT has always had a beef with religion, it was nothing like before Prop 8. They took the mobilization of the LDS church against them as an act of war and everything we're seeing towards the Church is retaliation for Prop 8.

People in CA used to say Mormons were good people. I used to get inquisitive questions. I used to get support. If someone was poking fun of Mormons, people used to pipe up and tell them to stop. With Prop 8, all of that disappeared. Mormons are now bigots, racists, and zealots. Instead of questions, I got accusations. Instead of support, I was shunned. Instead of defense, a pile-on.

I lost friends. I lost standing within my profession. I had to keep quite about my religion in fear of retaliation. All things I was willing to endure. But seeing your daughter lose friend after friend as they found out she was Mormon was heart breaking. Wasn't her fault.

If the aim of Prop 8 was to making living in CA nearly unbearable for members and getting them to leave CA, then Prop 8 was a success. Other that, it was a disaster.
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Re: Dick Harmon on Rise and Fall of BYU Athletics

Post by Ddawg » Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:16 am

Gunk, you are spot on. My kids in school experienced the same. Professionally, the hostility intensified. It's a fact. You really do have to ask, "is this hill worth dying for." Sometimes the answer is yes - but it is rare and must be used judiciously. In the Prop 8 case, it was not a hill worth dying on because the animosity and hardened enemy lines drawn are real, amongst powerful forces. The reality was, the gay marriage issue was a Tsunami that was not going to be stopped and swept the nation. In 2015 the Supreme Court ruled 5-4 and made it the law of the land. It is what it is, like it or not.

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