Libertarians and gender neutral locker rooms

[BlueK]

In my lifetime I will have paid much much more into the educational system than my kids used for their sports.

Should we all start clapping because you're financing your kids' sports teams on the backs of a bunch of widows? Good on you.

If you're taking money back the government stole from you in the first place I think that's great. If you're just taking money - well that's another story entirely. Even with your claim that it's "neither unlawful nor surreptitious" and that you'll pay it back eventually.

Come up with one definition of "stole" that supports your position... Just one

This seems to be the main point of your argument:
1. The government demands money from you just because you have it and will punish you in some way if you don't pay.
2. A random thug on the street demands money from you because you have it and will punish you in some way if you don't pay.

#1 is not stealing because the law says it's ok.

That doesn't change the morality of the concept by very much in my opinion.

But I think if you have taxes, they should be as "voluntary" as possible -- in other words, a sales tax should be way preferred over income tax. You don't have to buy the product if you don't want to pay the tax. Economists have proven this would also be much better than income tax which is essentially just a punishment for being productive and is therefore a drag on the economy.

[Mars]

My view:

Have Men's bathrooms. Have Women's bathrooms. Allow transgender individuals to use whichever bathroom they are more comfortable in. The End.

Is that the same with locker rooms or no?

No. Women who identify as men and who have their breasts reduced and a penis constructed should be forced to shower with women. Men who identify as women who have breasts enhancements and their penises removed and a vagina constructed should be forced to shower with men. Because THAT makes sense somehow.

[Mars]

My children have had a trans kid at their school since the 1st grade… He (meaning biologic he, not the “she” that he dresses up as) has always used the boys bathroom, and good for him and the school for having it happen that way I have always felt sorry for the little girls who are uncomfortable to have an uncovered penis in the bathroom with them at other schools. It really is too bad that we as a society have decided that we want to cater to these folks’ mental issues and not offer them the help that they need.

Tell us more about your horrible attitudes. Do you also have a white relative who is married to a black person who you refuse to ever speak about in public, due to the terrible shame you feel they brought on your family?

[Mars]

I'm proud of my school district and state for fighting against this ridiculousness, but if it is somehow strongarmed through... I personally would quit my job as a public educator.

And the educational system would be better off for it. Better an unemployed bigot than one being paid by my taxes to treat children poorly.

P.S. There are Trans BYU fans who read this forum.

[ABYUFAN]

My children have had a trans kid at their school since the 1st grade… He (meaning biologic he, not the “she” that he dresses up as) has always used the boys bathroom, and good for him and the school for having it happen that way I have always felt sorry for the little girls who are uncomfortable to have an uncovered penis in the bathroom with them at other schools. It really is too bad that we as a society have decided that we want to cater to these folks’ mental issues and not offer them the help that they need.

Tell us more about your horrible attitudes. Do you also have a white relative who is married to a black person who you refuse to ever speak about in public, due to the terrible shame you feel they brought on your family?

I believe that mental illnesses should be helped and not catered to. Sorry if that offends you. I believe that if someone has misophonia there are better alternatives than telling them that they are fine just the way they are. I believe that even if someone has aquaphobia they should still learn to swim. I have a cousin married to a black man, and we get along fine - but because I have an opinion that you find offensive I must be a horrible person. You're welcome to come to my house and shoot me.

[ABYUFAN]

In my lifetime I will have paid much much more into the educational system than my kids used for their sports.

Should we all start clapping because you're financing your kids' sports teams on the backs of a bunch of widows? Good on you.

If you're taking money back the government stole from you in the first place I think that's great. If you're just taking money - well that's another story entirely. Even with your claim that it's "neither unlawful nor surreptitious" and that you'll pay it back eventually.

Come up with one definition of "stole" that supports your position... Just one

This seems to be the main point of your argument:
1. The government demands money from you just because you have it and will punish you in some way if you don't pay.
2. A random thug on the street demands money from you because you have it and will punish you in some way if you don't pay.

#1 is not stealing because the law says it's ok.

That doesn't change the morality of the concept by very much in my opinion.

But I think if you have taxes, they should be as "voluntary" as possible -- in other words, a sales tax should be way preferred over income tax. You don't have to buy the product if you don't want to pay the tax. Economists have proven this would also be much better than income tax which is essentially just a punishment for being productive and is therefore a drag on the economy.

The government doesn't demand money from you just because you have it - the government demands money from everyone who receives the benefits of that government. The government excuses some people from paying any money because they do not have sufficient to pay, but there is no law prohibiting people from leaving an area where they don't want to pay what the government requires them to.

[Schmoe]

I'm proud of my school district and state for fighting against this ridiculousness, but if it is somehow strongarmed through... I personally would quit my job as a public educator.

And the educational system would be better off for it. Better an unemployed bigot than one being paid by my taxes to treat children poorly.

P.S. There are Trans BYU fans who read this forum.

You're right, wanting boys not to be able to have free reign to go into girls locker rooms at a junior high school and believing that the president doesn't have authority to decree whatever he wants based on his social beliefs instead of the constitution makes me a bigot and means that I "treat children poorly."

Funny statement, as well, coming from someone who is paid by my taxes--I'll gladly pay you back the less-than a penny that goes from your taxes to me if it means protecting teenage girls from pervy boys. These aren't people that have had surgeries, just anyone who "feels" like the opposite gender for that day, week, month, etc.

If there are trans BYU fans reading this forum, they should realize that laws are not to be used to justify someone's lifestyle choices, and the basic biological fact is that men and women are different.

Thanks for calling me names because you disagree with me, though, it's a great tactic instead of logically talking through an issue. You're a winner!

[Mars]

Sorry if I'm getting upset. It's just not a simple issue. Some people are born male. Some are born female. Some are born both. Some are born neither. Genetics themselves aren't perfect, due to DNA mutations and chromosomal abnormalities, which is why there's no sure way to perform gender testing in the Olympics. To label people as suffering from a mental disease because of issues like these reeks of the days when being gay was treated with electro-shock therapy. Psychology has come a long way in the last 100 years. I don't see how punishing people for being different than yourself can ever be an acceptable belief system. That's Sharia Law. Of course, that doesn't mean that Obama has the right answers either (he doesn't, nor can he seem to follow his legal jurisdictional boundaries), but to me that's neither here nor there.

One small life rule- Respect people enough to call them what they wish. If they are black, don't call them nigger. If they are gay, don't call them faggot. If they are transgender, identifying as female, transitioning to female, don't call them 'he'. That's simply being a good human being.

[Cougarfan87]

Sorry if I'm getting upset. It's just not a simple issue. Some people are born male. Some are born female. Some are born both. Some are born neither. Genetics themselves aren't perfect, due to DNA mutations and chromosomal abnormalities, which is why there's no sure way to perform gender testing in the Olympics. To label people as suffering from a mental disease because of issues like these reeks of the days when being gay was treated with electro-shock therapy. Psychology has come a long way in the last 100 years. I don't see how punishing people for being different than yourself can ever be an acceptable belief system. That's Sharia Law. Of course, that doesn't mean that Obama has the right answers either (he doesn't, nor can he seem to follow his legal jurisdictional boundaries), but to me that's neither here nor there.

One small life rule- Respect people enough to call them what they wish. If they are black, don't call them nigger. If they are gay, don't call them faggot. If they are transgender, identifying as female, transitioning to female, don't call them 'he'. That's simply being a good human being.

I think transgender is a much different issue than being a racial minority or homosexual. Yes there are genetic abnormalities that can lead to having both male and female sex organs. In that case, though, they are picking one, rather than switching from one sex to the opposite sex. Gender, except in all but the rarest of cases, is pretty clear at birth and is biologically verified. Having a desire to change your body to a different sex than the one you are born with is a mental illness, just like someone who feels like their limbs should be amputated (a real mental illness), one who feels like they should be thinner, so they starve themselves or make themselves throw up (a real mental illness), or any of the other mental illnesses that cause people to make a break from reality and take serious action to change their otherwise perfectly healthy bodies.

Studies have shown that after transgender surgery, there is actually an increased rate of suicide by more than 20 times. Why do you suppose that is? Unfortunately, there cannot be real, honest intellectual study into the issues because people start throwing around the bigot card to silence any honest inquiry into whether mental health counseling is better for the person struggling with that issue, as opposed to a completely physical change. See, http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh ... 1402615120 for example.

The real issue, as has been pointed out, is those that have not gone through a transition surgery, but just identify as the opposite sex for the day as a sham to have access to the opposite locker room. I would have no issues with a woman who has had the surgery to look like a man being in the men's locker room or vice versa. But that isn't what all the hoopla is about. It is about the teenage boy "feeling like he is a woman today" and hanging out in the girl's locker room.

[Schmoe]

http://www.youngcons.com/mother-of-girl ... peaks-out/

Shocking! How can this mother be such a bigot and treat children so poorly? Doesn't she know that there are probably trans people who read youngcons? She should probably be fired from her job and stuff.