Libertarians and gender neutral locker rooms

[jvquarterback]

BTW There is a wonderful website called Transparent California - where the world can know what people in the public sector make. I pulled up Fresno Unified School District. Nice middle class school district in the central valley. Here's a link to the Music teachers' salaries....
http://transparentcalifornia.com/salari ... sic&y=2014

The highest paid teacher has a regular rate of pay at $77,000. the lowest $15,000. There are significant benefits (mostly coming from an excellent defined benefit retirement plan) Teachers are not getting rich on these salaries, but they can at least own a house and a car. At $77,000. they realistically need to be a two-income family to pay for their kids' college education.

so tell us the name of this teacher, and we can see for yourself that teacher's compensation.

PS just for a goof, look up engineer salaries, and see how they compare....

http://transparentcalifornia.com/salari ... q=engineer

No doubt city "engineers" are overpaid compared to their private counterparts. So are teachers. The government sets a price that is way overmarket (like they do for everything else). Also those numbers leave out the a large part of the present value of retirement benefits.

The value of a benefits package for privately employed engineers is half that of public school teachers. So teachers starting at 43K here make an amount equivalent to an engineer starting at 60K (the average for CA engineering grads).

Look up music teachers in Monterey county (Salinas Union). The smarter districts here hire consultants at half the price their union counterparts charge, some of whom aren't even on that list.

[ABYUFAN]

BTW There is a wonderful website called Transparent California - where the world can know what people in the public sector make. I pulled up Fresno Unified School District. Nice middle class school district in the central valley. Here's a link to the Music teachers' salaries....
http://transparentcalifornia.com/salari ... sic&y=2014

The highest paid teacher has a regular rate of pay at $77,000. the lowest $15,000. There are significant benefits (mostly coming from an excellent defined benefit retirement plan) Teachers are not getting rich on these salaries, but they can at least own a house and a car. At $77,000. they realistically need to be a two-income family to pay for their kids' college education.

so tell us the name of this teacher, and we can see for yourself that teacher's compensation.

PS just for a goof, look up engineer salaries, and see how they compare....

http://transparentcalifornia.com/salari ... q=engineer

No doubt city "engineers" are overpaid compared to their private counterparts. So are teachers. The government sets a price that is way overmarket (like they do for everything else). Also those numbers leave out the a large part of the present value of retirement benefits.

The value of a benefits package for privately employed engineers is half that of public school teachers. So teachers starting at 43K here make an amount equivalent to an engineer starting at 60K (the average for CA engineering grads).

Look up music teachers in Monterey county (Salinas Union). The smarter districts here hire consultants at half the price their union counterparts charge, some of whom aren't even on that list.

You're taking the highest public sector compensation place of Monterey County and comparing it to the statewide average of starting civil engineers. Not the average starting salary of Monterey County Engineers. Got it. You realize that your position is not supportable

But to get back to where we started, You had a conniption when I said that it was a sin for a school district not to have sports or music classes. And yet your kids are in music classes that cost about what it takes to pay a music teacher. Also your kids are involved in sports that rely on the generosity of others, and are not self-sustainable, but even with that you have a problem with others thinking that music and sports belong in a publicly funded school.

[ABYUFAN]

but remember before when you said taxation was theft then changed your mind when it didn't suit your argument?).
.

I don't remember saying that - mostly because I never did..... Show me where you think that I said that (Spoiler alert: you can't). I'm just chalking this up as trying to have a rational discussion with an irrational person.

By the way, you admit that your kids sports are subsidized through other people's money and efforts (i.e. property donation) You also admit that the so-called "market value" of a music lesson is roughly the hourly rate of pay of a public school teacher. It really was nice having this conversation with you

Just a reminder Mr. JV, this question is still pending.

[jvquarterback]

You're taking the highest public sector compensation place of Monterey County and comparing it to the statewide average of starting civil engineers. Not the average starting salary of Monterey County Engineers. Got it. You realize that your position is not supportable

But to get back to where we started, You had a conniption when I said that it was a sin for a school district not to have sports or music classes. And yet your kids are in music classes that cost about what it takes to pay a music teacher. Also your kids are involved in sports that rely on the generosity of others, and are not self-sustainable, but even with that you have a problem with others thinking that music and sports belong in a publicly funded school.

I doubt you have any concept of Monterey County but there aren't a lot of engineers here, most of them are in the bay area, LA and San Diego where the cost of living is much higher - those that are here do mechanical engineering (agricultural and otherwise)if they are lucky and aren't getting paid what the guys up in San Jose get paid. Also Monterey county is a relatively inexpensive place to live in California as long as you don't live in Carmel or Pacific Grove.

Generosity is great - our HOA has offered our ball field free from cost but the league likes to support the upkeep of the school fields. No one holds a gun to our heads asking for donations or threatens jail time if we don't contribute. Theft by taxation to pay for some over-educated, sorry teacher (and musician) to bang on some drums is not OK. I pay half the price for wonderful music instructors to come to my house and teach lessons (are you really going to argue they bill 80K a year traveling to peoples' homes? and that doesn't include self employment taxes, driving costs, time spent traveling, time at recitals, etc.). And the only reason I have to pay that much is because the government overpays somebody at the local school.

As I've said the smarter districts hire consultants at about half the cost of the music teachers in our district. The same could be done with PE teachers and sports' teams. If people want to donate they should. If they don't, you shouldn't threaten to confiscate their property.

BTW I apologize for thinking you could be integral in your argument. For you it's a sin to misuse stolen funds. For me it is a sin to steal and threaten violence in the first place.

[ABYUFAN]

I doubt you have any concept of Monterey County...

Doubt all you want... you'd be wrong about that too.

but there aren't a lot of engineers here, most of them are in the bay area, LA and San Diego where the cost of living is much higher - those that are here do mechanical engineering (agricultural and otherwise)if they are lucky and aren't getting paid what the guys up in San Jose get paid.

Not true and no way that you can quantify that, but we'll ignore that because of the other glaring problems with your statements...

Also Monterey county is a relatively inexpensive place to live in California as long as you don't live in Carmel or Pacific Grove.

Salinas is also very expensive to live in, as is the entire county. This website indicates that the cost of living in Salinas is equal to that of San Diego....

http://cost-of-living.careertrends.com/d/d/California

BTW I apologize for thinking you could be integral in your argument. For you it's a sin to misuse stolen funds. For me it is a sin to steal and threaten violence in the first place.

Nice. Not only do you accuse people of saying things that they never did, you also have some previously-unknown and perhaps unknowable definition to common English words.

In the traditional English language, the word steal, as it relates to theft is to take another person's property without permission or legal right and without intending to return it.

Often times the taking is surreptitiously.

Taxes are neither unlawful nor surreptitious.

For me it is a sin to misuse PUBLIC funds. I've never called them stolen, you have. For you it is a sin for the government to legally take something that it is entitled to and to use it in a way that you (and you alone) find bothersome.

At least I understand you now. You want to live in Monterey but not pay Monterey taxes. Talk about entitlement. I travel to Monterey all the time, when there I pay their extra occupancy taxes on hotels, I pay their higher sales tax on goods, and then I leave.

[jvquarterback]

Leave it to an English teacher or worse, an English teacher's husband or son, and you'll get an Orwellian definition of the word steal. Taxes are lawful - remind me who makes the law? Oh yeah, the person taking your money. I hope you feel good about taking other people's money to pay for your kids' sports teams. Remember that the next time some old lady has her house foreclosed over a tax lien.

BTW learn how to read a chart. The Salinas metro you cite includes all of Monterey county including Carmel and Pacific Grove. Salinas is still expensive compared to Provo but without the peninsula data it's very manageable particularly with all the benefits teachers get (including buying homes at half price).

[ABYUFAN]

Leave it to an English teacher or worse, an English teacher's husband or son, and you'll get an Orwellian definition of the word steal. Taxes are lawful - remind me who makes the law? Oh yeah, the person taking your money. I hope you feel good about taking other people's money to pay for your kids' sports teams. Remember that the next time some old lady has her house foreclosed over a tax lien.

BTW learn how to read a chart. The Salinas metro you cite includes all of Monterey county including Carmel and Pacific Grove. Salinas is still expensive compared to Provo but without the peninsula data it's very manageable particularly with all the benefits teachers get (including buying homes at half price).

I've told you this before, and I know that it is hard for you to believe, In my lifetime I will have paid much much more into the educational system than my kids used for their sports. I'm sorry that this information hurts your psyche so much that you refuse to acknowledge it.

[jvquarterback]

In my lifetime I will have paid much much more into the educational system than my kids used for their sports.

Should we all start clapping because you're financing your kids' sports teams on the backs of a bunch of widows? Good on you.

If you're taking money back the government stole from you in the first place I think that's great. If you're just taking money - well that's another story entirely. Even with your claim that it's "neither unlawful nor surreptitious" and that you'll pay it back eventually.

[ABYUFAN]

In my lifetime I will have paid much much more into the educational system than my kids used for their sports.

Should we all start clapping because you're financing your kids' sports teams on the backs of a bunch of widows? Good on you.

If you're taking money back the government stole from you in the first place I think that's great. If you're just taking money - well that's another story entirely. Even with your claim that it's "neither unlawful nor surreptitious" and that you'll pay it back eventually.

Come up with one definition of "stole" that supports your position... Just one

[BlueK]

In my lifetime I will have paid much much more into the educational system than my kids used for their sports.

Should we all start clapping because you're financing your kids' sports teams on the backs of a bunch of widows? Good on you.

If you're taking money back the government stole from you in the first place I think that's great. If you're just taking money - well that's another story entirely. Even with your claim that it's "neither unlawful nor surreptitious" and that you'll pay it back eventually.

Come up with one definition of "stole" that supports your position... Just one

This seems to be the main point of your argument:
1. The government demands money from you just because you have it and will punish you in some way if you don't pay.
2. A random thug on the street demands money from you because you have it and will punish you in some way if you don't pay.

#1 is not stealing because the law says it's ok.

That doesn't change the morality of the concept by very much in my opinion.